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John 10:30 I And My Father Are One


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#1 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:12 AM

John 10:
30  I and my Father are one.
31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


This passage is oft quoted by trinitarians as clear evidence that Jesus claimed to be God - he was claiming to be ontologically one with the Father.

The principle difficulty of John 10:30 for the trinitarian is that to read it in the trinitarian sense requires 'confusing the persons' - which the trinitarian model does not permit.

Here, Christ is not calling himself 'God' - if the trinitarian is to be believed, he is calling himself 'the Father'. You should know that it is heresy to say that the son and the Father are one person, but this is apparently what Christ is doing here. Certainly he is not claiming to be God - the problem for the trinitarian is far greater than that!

So what is Christ saying? He is speaking of a particular unity which he has with the Father - but what unity? Fortunately, he tells us.

The very unity of which Christ speaks here is the unity he wishes the disciples to have with himself and the Father.

#2 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:12 AM

Christ is very clear on this. The unity to which he referred in John 10:30 is the same unity he speaks of in relation to his followers, himself, and God:

John 17:
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.



#3 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:12 AM

This is pretty strong stuff:

- That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee

- That they also may be one in us

- That they may be one, even as we are one

We are one with Christ and his Father, in the same way that Christ was one with his Father.

#4 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 06:12 AM

A few questions, for those who believe that 'I and my Father are one' means 'I and my Father are part of a triune Godhead which consists of three persons in one esence':

* How can the disciples and "them also which shall believe on me through their word" all be one in the same way that Christ and the Father are one?

* How can they be one in Christ and the Father?

* How can they be made perfect in one?




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