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#21 Evangelion

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:03 PM

Finally, youíll have to show me where God abandoned the Jews so that they had to go it alone without Divine inspiration.


The era of the Maccabees. That is the very period in which the Jews themselves agreed that inspiration and prophetic utterance had ceased - which in turn, is why they rejected the Apocrypha as uninspired.

Read Josephus. You'll see that I'm right.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#22 Evangelion

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:03 PM

I believe the history of Judaism is filled with Prophets.


Well, that's simply not true, unfortunately.

That is precisely why the Hebrew Bible continued to grow with history.


The Hebrew Bible only "continued to grow with history" while inspiration was available. It did not grow during the time of the Maccabees. The Jews freely affirm this themselves.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#23 Evangelion

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:05 PM

The Pharisees allowed their scripture to include oral tradition.


...which really got them into hot water when Jesus came along!

Thus:
Matthew 15:1-2.
Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Of course, the simple answer to the Pharisees' question is that the disciples "transgressed the tradition of the elders" because "the tradition of the elders" was a load of hogwash, as Jesus goes on to demonstrate:
Matthew 15:3-9.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

That's what Jesus thought of the Pharisees!

This upset the Sadducees to no end, as they adhered only to the first 5 books Ö the Torah, as do the Samaritans to this day.

Well, you can't blame them for trying!
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#24 Evangelion

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:08 PM

Our Savior gives us a big hint of what he thinks of Sola Scriptura in Matt 23:2. The rightful authority (Chair of Moses) did not belong not to the Sadducees (Sola Scripturists), but to the Pharisees (scripture + tradition).


Actually, Jesus doesn't say "It doesn't belong to the Sadducees", nor does he claim that "Scripture + tradition" is the approved method of keeping God's commandments. You're reading all of this into the text. What he does say, is that the Pharisees (as the spiritual leaders of the people) are responsible for teaching the people. (Which they were.) But does this automatically mean that the people must accept everything that they were told? By no means!

Quite apart from Jesus' stinging rebuke in Matthew 15, we have his lengthy polemic in Matthew 23 -
Matthew 23:1-4.
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Here we see that the extra-Biblical traditions are soundly condemned.

What else does Jesus have to say...?
Matthew 23:13-16.
ut woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
This is the language of John 9 - and it's not complimentary!

But it goes on...
Matthew 23:23-33.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
And this is your idea of an argument in their favour...?
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#25 Evangelion

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:08 PM

With St. Paulís influence (a former Pharisee) can there be no doubt as to why St. Paul also taught the importance to tradition, both written and oral?


Yes. Just ask Jesus. Just look at the writings of Paul. Just look at the example of the Bereans.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#26 Evangelion

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:09 PM

Today we have the Chair of Peter which holds fast to apostolic tradition, both written and oral.


...which Jesus openly condemns.

Like Matt 23:2, we should adhere to the teachings of the Chair of Peter, even if the actions of these Christians show how very impeccable they really are.


Nonsense. The "Chair of Peter" is nothing more than another manmade tradition.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.




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