Jump to content


Photo

Conversations with Catholics


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
25 replies to this topic

#1 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:52 AM

The Catholic's arguments are in quotation boxes. My response follows in plain text.

By my review of Church history, Sola Scriptura was invented by Luther in the 1500s.


As a doctrine? Certainly. As an epistemological principle? Not at all - as you go on to demonstrate. The Sadducees were Sola Scriptura, which means that Luther wasn't inventing anything new at all. The only difference between Luther and the Sadducees is that he saw Sola Scriptura as a doctrine, while they saw it as an epistemological principle.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#2 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:53 AM

Let's compare the unity of the ancient Churches prior to the 1500s (Catholic, Orthodox, Assyrian, Coptic), to the unity of Sola Scripturist of the post-Reformation period.


Hmmm... the Great Schism of 1054... Arianism... Iconoclasm... various theological controversies in which bishops excommunicated each other... violent clashes... murders... assassinations...

Yes, that all sounds very "unified", doesn't it?
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#3 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:53 AM

One out of every six people on the earth professes to the Catholic faith. It is not only the largest Christian denomination in the world, it is also larger than any other religious body of any kind.


Irrelevant. If size was any indication of truth, we'd all be Buddhists.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#4 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:54 AM

It would be very difficult for the average Christian to name the difference between the Assyrian (Nestorian) Church and the Catholic Church, even after 1500 years of separation.


Really? The last time I checked, Nestorianism was still a heresy, and so was Monophysitism.

Does this not testify to the orthodoxy of both Churches with regard to what they themselves were handed as apostolic tradition?


No.

I think it does.


Then you must have a very strange definition of "unity."
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#5 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:55 AM

On the contrary, Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli all believed Mary to be the Mother of God. They also believed in Mary's perpetual virginity.


This is no concern of mine.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#6 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:56 AM

Scripture speaks of a Church built upon a rock, regardless what your interpretation of what that rock is, a rock is a firm foundation which is difficult to move. Sola Scriptura is a foundation of sand which cannot bring about the unity which our Savior prayed for.


On the contrary, human error is the heart of all schism, and even your Church is not immune to it.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#7 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:56 AM

I believe Sacred Scripture indicates that Jesus and the Apostles were not Sola Scripturists.


...and I agree with you. Of course they weren't - they had the power of the Holy Spirit, and Divine authority! (You don't need Sola Scriptura when you've already got Divine inspiration. That's the whole point.)

But you have raised certain points in connexion with the books of the Apocrypha, and that is a topic which definitely requires attention...
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#8 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:57 AM

In support of tradition as a basis for doctrine and practice, here are some examples of traditions in the NT, not found in the OT:

1) Feast of Dedication (Jn 10:22-23) is nowhere found in the Protestant Old Testament-- this is, however, in the Catholic Old Testament book 2 Maccabees.


Since there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus and the apostles kept the Feast of Dedication (which appears to have been little more than a public holiday), I don't see how this can be advanced in support of your argument. And in any case, it's not doctrinal.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#9 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:57 AM

2) The prophecy "He shall be called a Nazorean" (Matt 2:23) is nowhere found in the OT.


I believe that B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament gives a fair summary of the evidence here:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets.
Not by one prophet, but the summing up of a number of prophecies. No prophet had declared in express terms that he should be called a Nazarene.

They, however, did apply to Christ the term Nezer, from which Nazareth is derived; the Nazarites, of whom Samson was one, were typical of Christ; the meanness and contempt in which Nazareth was held was itself a prophecy of one who "was despised and rejected." See Isa_11:1; Jer_23:5; Jer_33:15; Zec_3:8; Zec_6:12.

Collective references to OT prophecies are by no means uncommon in the NT. (And of course, it's impossible to ignore the clear typological connexion with Samson...)
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#10 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:58 AM

3) The authority symbol of the Chair of Moses is nowhere found in the OT (Matt 23:2).

It's a mere figure of speech. To "sit in Moses' seat" simply means "to perform his role as a leader of the nation." It does not refer to a specific "authority symbol", like the Catholic Church's "Chair of Peter." So the fact that this figure of speech does not occur in the OT, is irrelevant.

And of course, it's not doctrinal, so...
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#11 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:58 AM

4) The rock that followed the Israelites (1 Cor 10:4) is nowhere described in the OT.


Yes it is. This is a reference to the rock which Moses spoke to, and the rock which he smote. The two rocks represented Christ. This entire passage is figurative, not literal. (Hence the use of the expressions "spiritual meat... spiritual drink... the spiritual rock...")

I recommend that you take a little time to read Jesus' conversation with the woman at Jacob's Well.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#12 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:58 AM

5) The names of the court magicians given by Paul (2 Tim 3:8). These names are nowhere found in the OT.

6) The encounter between St. Michael vs. the Devil (Jude 9) is nowhere found in the OT.


None of this is doctrinal, so it doesn't concern me in the slightetst - nor does it have any impact on my argument.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#13 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:59 AM

7) Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament


No it doesn't. The OT is not even mentioned.

What it actually says, is this:
Hebrews 11:1-2.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Moving right along...
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#14 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:59 AM

and in the Old Testament "Women received their dead by resurrection.


That's in the Old Testament for sure.

Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life" (Heb. 11:35). However, you cannot find this in the Protestant Old Testament—this is, however, in the Catholic Old Testament book 2 Maccabees.


I do not deny that certain historical facts can be found in the books of the Maccabees. I merely deny that they are inspired. Moreover, there is absolutely nothing doctrinal about Paul's exhortation here, so I don't see how it can be used against the principle of Sola Scriptura.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#15 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:59 AM

8) In Acts 20:35, Paul cites a saying of Jesus which is nowhere else in the Bible. If Paul believed he was restricted to the written Word of God as his sole rule of faith, then where did he learn of this saying of Christ? Perhaps it was revealed to him directly? Perhaps it was oral tradition? Whatever it was, it certainly was not a “Bible Alone” teaching.


Agreed! As one who had received the privilege of Divine inspiration, Paul had no need of Sola Scriptura.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#16 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:00 PM

The Pharisees (St. Paul used to be one) were not Sola Scripturist.


Agreed! And Jesus condemned them for subscribing to the "traditions of men"!
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#17 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:00 PM

The Sadducees were.


Agreed! (Too bad they messed it up.)
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#18 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:01 PM

The Pharisees held to the teachings of scripture and oral tradition.


...traditions which Jesus vigorously condemned in no uncertain terms!
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#19 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:01 PM

Who did Jesus say held the “Chair of Moses” in Matt 23:2? The Pharisees … the group which held to scripture and tradition were the rightful authority which the disciples were told to follow.


Exactly. And because they abused this authority by their false teaching and man-made traditions, they received the greater condemnation.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#20 Evangelion

Evangelion

    Administrator

  • Admin
  • 24,344 posts
  • LocationAdelaide, South Australia

Posted 11 June 2003 - 12:02 PM

Jesus told his disciples to do as the Pharisees told them, but not to do what they did, because they failed to practice what they preached. So, does Jesus say that their “teachings” went astray or their behavior? It was their behavior.

Ref: http://religion-cult...ism/brans-j.htm


Ah, you need to read a little further, my friend...
Matthew 16:6-12.
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
See also:
John 9:39-41.
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users