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Did Christ's spirit go up or down?


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#1 Steven

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 09:07 PM

Simpleton,
As requested here is a new thread.

THE SPIRIT OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST did not go to heaven at death.He went [his spirit] to free the captives ,who were held in the lower parts of the earth.
But then came back to his body and after went to heven or we can say?NEW JERUSALEM .The city made for us!Those BORN OF GOD!

But we dump our bodys and never use then again.Because they are corrupted ,full of sin. But HIS WAS NOT!


Okay, obviously this question is related to where Adam went when he died, so I'm going to start a poll on that too.
S.

Edited by Steven, 07 December 2005 - 09:08 PM.


#2 Simpleton

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 11:13 AM

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (Luke 23:46).

His spirit went to the Father, his body was placed in a tomb.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:8-10)

I think the "captivity captive" is the devil and his works (he is the captivity) that Jesus defeated for his people that they might be set free form sin. He that ascended to heaven first descended from heaven and was made man. This proves his divine origin; that he is by nature God (Emmanuel---God with us). He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens that man is able to see with his eyes. Christ fulfills all things spoken of him in the prophets and is the all and in all.

People saw him when he ascended into heaven bodily.

#3 Jeremy

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 11:20 AM

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (Luke 23:46).

Yep. Proves to me that ghost here = breath (of life). Jesus stopped breathing and died.

No evidence of any conscious existence after that.

His spirit went to the Father, his body was placed in a tomb.

Agreed. He was dead. Nobody died for our sins otherwise.

#4 Steven

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 11:43 AM

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost (Luke 23:46).

His spirit went to the Father, his body was placed in a tomb.


Simpleton
Right!
The Lord's spirit went to his Father - correct.
The Lord's body went to the grave - correct.

Now that only leaves one question:
Where did Jesus' soul go? Remember Jesus said in John 10 that "the Good Shepherd lays down his soul for the sheep" (Greek), so where did he lay down this soul? Where did it go? Up or down?

Steven


again, rest of answer deleted, let's all stick to topic please

#5 Simpleton

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 12:06 PM

I don't think that the meaning of the English word soul will exactly match what it represents in Hebrew or Greek. When we look at it from Genesis to Revelation we have language differences.

I believe that the spirit and soul stay together. I think that God's breath gave Adam life or else that lump of clay would have remained just clay or dust. When we stop breathing we die. But we still have a spirit and soul even though the body is dead.

Jesus' soul was where his spirit was. With the Father. His body was laid in a tomb. The spirit and soul were not with the body.

#6 Steven

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 12:20 PM

I don't think that the meaning of the English word soul will exactly match what it represents in Hebrew or Greek. When we look at it from Genesis to Revelation we have language differences.


Correct - which is why I quoted John 10 that "the Good Shepherd lays down his soul for the sheep" (Greek)

I believe that the spirit and soul stay together. I think that God's breath gave Adam life or else that lump of clay would have remained just clay or dust. When we stop breathing we die. But we still have a spirit and soul even though the body is dead.

Jesus' soul was where his spirit was. With the Father. His body was laid in a tomb. The spirit and soul were not with the body.


So, you believe Christ's spirt & soul went up to heaven. Okay

Then what then do you make of :
# "I have not yet gone up to my Father and your Father" John20:17
# "his soul was not left in Hades" in Peter's speech Acts2?


Aren't both of these statements wrong? If you say his soul had gone up, and his soul was never in Hades.

#7 Simpleton

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 01:12 PM

Jn. 20:17---He was back in the body at that time. He had not bodily ascended to heaven but would later. I think Mary was clinging to him as though he were about to ascend immediately and she wanted him to remain, but he told her that he wasn't going to do so for some time. There was no need for her to make a spectacle of herself in clinging to him.

Acts 2:27---I think that the word soul here refers to the body. David saw corruption (his body that is). David would be redeemed from power of the grave (death) by the redeemer (Jesus). The body of Christ did not experience corruption.

Soul sometimes means the complete person, other times just the spirit, or the life of the person.

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (Luke 1:44).

We see Mary speaking of soul and spirit. My guess is soul is her entire being and spirit is her emotions. Don't know really.

#8 He-man

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 02:04 PM


I don't think that the meaning of the English word soul will exactly match what it represents in Hebrew or Greek. When we look at it from Genesis to Revelation we have language differences.


Correct - which is why I quoted John 10 that "the Good Shepherd lays down his soul for the sheep" (Greek)

I believe that the spirit and soul stay together. I think that God's breath gave Adam life or else that lump of clay would have remained just clay or dust. When we stop breathing we die. But we still have a spirit and soul even though the body is dead.

Jesus' soul was where his spirit was. With the Father. His body was laid in a tomb. The spirit and soul were not with the body.


So, you believe Christ's spirt & soul went up to heaven. Okay

Then what then do you make of :
# "I have not yet gone up to my Father and your Father" John20:17
# "his soul was not left in Hades" in Peter's speech Acts2?


Aren't both of these statements wrong? If you say his soul had gone up, and his soul was never in Hades.


Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

#9 Matt Smith

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 02:54 PM

Jn. 20:17---He was back in the body at that time. He had not bodily ascended to heaven but would later. I think Mary was clinging to him as though he were about to ascend immediately and she wanted him to remain, but he told her that he wasn't going to do so for some time. There was no need for her to make a spectacle of herself in clinging to him.

Acts 2:27---I think that the word soul here refers to the body. David saw corruption (his body that is). David would be redeemed from power of the grave (death) by the redeemer (Jesus). The body of Christ did not experience corruption.

Soul sometimes means the complete person, other times just the spirit, or the life of the person.

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (Luke 1:44).

We see Mary speaking of soul and spirit. My guess is soul is her entire being and spirit is her emotions. Don't know really.


Nice convenient interpretation... Can we have some Biblical evidence for this?

#10 He-man

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 03:49 PM

Jn. 20:17---He was back in the body at that time. He had not bodily ascended to heaven but would later. I think Mary was clinging to him as though he were about to ascend immediately and she wanted him to remain, but he told her that he wasn't going to do so for some time. There was no need for her to make a spectacle of herself in clinging to him.

Acts 2:27---I think that the word soul here refers to the body. David saw corruption (his body that is). David would be redeemed from power of the grave (death) by the redeemer (Jesus). The body of Christ did not experience corruption.

Soul sometimes means the complete person, other times just the spirit, or the life of the person.

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (Luke 1:44).

We see Mary speaking of soul and spirit. My guess is soul is her entire being and spirit is her emotions. Don't know really.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust(body) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

#11 Simpleton

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 04:30 PM

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water (1 Peter 3:20).

My guess here is that souls means the complete person.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Mt. 10:28).

Here soul does not mean the body or the complete person. It must mean spirit or spirit and soul.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:23).

Here soul is separate from body and spirit.

#12 Jeremy

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 04:42 PM

Jn. 20:17---He was back in the body at that time. He had not bodily ascended to heaven but would later.

So was it Jesus's body or his soul (or spirit) that went to heaven?

#13 He-man

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 07:08 PM

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a-preparing, wherein few, that is, eight lives were saved by water (1 Peter 3:20).


My guess here is that souls means the complete person.

5590 quch psuche psoo-khay' lives

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy the (future) life: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both life and body in Gehenna (Mt. 10:28).

Here soul does not mean the body or the complete person. It must mean spirit or spirit and soul.

Same as 1 Pet 3:20 5590 quch psuche psoo-khay' life and see also Matt 10 verse 39

And the very God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your whole person the spirit and the life and the body be preserved blameless in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:23).

Here soul is separate from body and spirit.

5590 quch psuche psoo-khay' life see 1 Cor 1:8, 9
(Codex Vaticanus (B); Codex Sinaiticus; Online Bible

Edited by He-man, 08 December 2005 - 07:11 PM.


#14 Steven

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 07:50 PM

We see Mary speaking of soul and spirit. My guess is soul is her entire being and spirit is her emotions. Don't know really.


Hurray! Good for you. Saying "don't know really" is the first sign of wisdom :coffee:

So how can we find out what "soul" means?

Simpleton, do you have a concordance in your house?

#15 Guest_Colter_*

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 07:42 AM

30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

#16 Jeremy

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 08:30 AM

30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

Luke 24, but I'm not sure of your point here, sir.

#17 Guest_Colter_*

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 08:57 AM


30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.

Luke 24, but I'm not sure of your point here, sir.


He was risen in spirit, a mortal body would not appear and disappear. He still had everything except his body.

#18 Jeremy

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 09:15 AM


Luke 24, but I'm not sure of your point here, sir.

He was risen in spirit, a mortal body would not appear and disappear. He still had everything except his body.

Thanks.

Probably not his mortal body by that stage, agreed, but definitely a body. Othwerwise he couldn't have eaten bread and fish (John 21 v 9 - presuming he did eat), and certainly not invited Thomas to touch his hands and side (John 21 v 27).

So he had a body right enough. We even know what it was made of - flesh and bones (Luke 24 v 39). It seems that resurrected bodies can therefore appear or disappear at will. Like the angels (Luke 20 v 36).

#19 Guest_Colter_*

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 09:26 AM



Luke 24, but I'm not sure of your point here, sir.

He was risen in spirit, a mortal body would not appear and disappear. He still had everything except his body.

Thanks.

Probably not his mortal body by that stage, agreed, but definitely a body. Othwerwise he couldn't have eaten bread and fish (John 21 v 9 - presuming he did eat), and certainly not invited Thomas to touch his hands and side (John 21 v 27).

So he had a body right enough. We even know what it was made of - flesh and bones (Luke 24 v 39). It seems that resurrected bodies can therefore appear or disappear at will. Like the angels (Luke 20 v 36).


17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'

#20 Jeremy

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Posted 09 December 2005 - 11:25 AM

17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'

Again, I'm not sure of your point. An explanatory sentence would be helpful with each message. Thanks.




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