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#81 Matt Smith

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:09 AM

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#82 Evangelion

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:13 AM

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. --And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

IF THEY RELIED ON GOD'S PROTECTION THEN THEY COULDN'T BE DEISTS, COULD THEY?

TAKE THAT!

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"Nature's God" is the language of Deism, through and through. It is not the language of Christianity.

You seem to believe that if Deists confess a belief in God, they are actually Christians, but this is simply not true.

Deists believe in God; they just don't accept the Biblical version. :book:

I found this article to be very helpful, particularly since it clears up some of the confusion about how the Founding Fathers are defined and/or referred to:An issue that most would think is irrelevant is always at the forefront of a cultural war. This war is not fought with guns and blood but with words and thoughts. The war is over the faith of the Founding Fathers.

The term Founding Fathers is actually misleading as it has two views.

The first is that all the 55 men involved at the Constitutional Convention were the fathers.

The second is that only the most well known men including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, Aaron Burr, John Adams, James Madison and John Adams were the Founding Fathers.


In this particular case the second view will be used.

Of the 55 men at the Convention, the majority were Christians. Not all were but for the most part the religion of Christianity was well represented.

However, among the Founding Fathers, the majority were Deists, held Deistic thought and/or were influenced by Deism but some never called themselves Deists.

Those that were placed in this camp included: Washington, Adams, Madison, Jefferson and Franklin. Each of these men had considerable power in early America. Their view of God is what led them to create the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Plenty more available at the site in my link. :popcorn:

Edited by Evangelion, 14 October 2005 - 10:29 AM.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#83 Adanac

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:26 AM

I found this[/color] article to be very helpful,

Yes, yes, very helpful. I need to get my Java skills up to speed. Do you want us to debug it for you?

#84 Evangelion

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:30 AM

I found this[/color] article to be very helpful,

Yes, yes, very helpful. I need to get my Java skills up to speed. Do you want us to debug it for you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


OK, sorted. :rolleyes:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#85 Fortigurn

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:45 AM

'In this particular case the second view will be used.'

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Classic case of selective reading for the purpose of revisionism. But at least they're open about it.

#86 Stephen

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:47 AM

However, among the Founding Fathers, the majority were Deists, held Deistic thought and/or were influenced by Deism but some never called themselves Deists.


Geee..... first we reduce the 55 to 8 choice candidates, then we toss in a definition of diesm that could convict half of the Christians on this board. OK. Under those circumstances, your right, "Most of the Founding Fathers were deists,". The Christians have no case.
... have mercy on those who waver; save others by snatching them out of the fire; have mercy on others, coupled with a fear of God, hating even the clothes stained by the flesh.

#87 Fortigurn

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 10:47 AM

However, among the Founding Fathers, the majority were Deists, held Deistic thought and/or were influenced by Deism but some never called themselves Deists.


Geee..... first we reduce the 55 to 8 choice candidates, then we toss in a definition of diesm that could convict half of the Christians on this board. OK. Under those circumstances, your right, "Most of the Founding Fathers were deists,". The Christians have no case.

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:rofl1:

#88 Evangelion

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 12:35 PM

However, among the Founding Fathers, the majority were Deists, held Deistic thought and/or were influenced by Deism but some never called themselves Deists.


Geee..... first we reduce the 55 to 8 choice candidates, then we toss in a definition of diesm that could convict half of the Christians on this board. OK. Under those circumstances, your right, "Most of the Founding Fathers were deists,". The Christians have no case.

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Where exactly is the definition of Deism there...? :book:

And the article actually says "...only the most well known men [color]red]including[/color] George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, Aaron Burr, John Adams, James Madison and John Adams..." It doesn't narrow the whole bunch down to 8 people. :tarkus:

Meanwhile, [color="blue"]This[/color] site has its own definition:The Founding Fathers of the United States, also known to some Americans as the Fathers of Our Country, the Forefathers, Framers or the Founders are [color="red"]the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, United States Constitution or otherwise participated in the American Revolution as leaders of the Patriots.[/color]
So if you participated in the Revolution as a leader of the Patriots, you're a Founding Father - apparently. :blink:

Edited by Evangelion, 14 October 2005 - 12:37 PM.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#89 Dianne

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 03:04 PM

'In this particular case the second view will be used.'

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Classic case of selective reading for the purpose of revisionism. But at least they're open about it.

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:yep:

Those 8 that are listed are always refered to as "...the most famous of our Founding Fathers" but they are not the Founding Fathers. There are no two views or two definitions unless there is an agenda.

Edited by Dianne, 14 October 2005 - 03:08 PM.


#90 nsr

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 02:56 AM

No offence meant to Americans, I think all patriotism is silly. The American version is just funnier than most.

#91 Fortigurn

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 03:01 AM

Those 8 that are listed are always refered to as "...the most famous of our Founding Fathers" but they are not the Founding Fathers.  There are no two views or two definitions unless there is an agenda.

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Yep. Wikipedia seems pretty reliable here:

The Founding Fathers of the United States, also known to some Americans as the Fathers of Our Country, the Forefathers, Framers or the Founders are the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, United States Constitution or otherwise participated in the American Revolution as leaders of the Patriots.

The Founders were characterized, as a group, by remarkable intellectual ability, foresight and public-spiritedness.


They also list the names of all the Founding Fathers. It's certainly more than 8. Article here.

#92 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 12:15 AM

Wow, this thread seemed to go from "Deists reject The Bible" to "the founding fathers are christians/deists" rather quickly.
For the first part: depends on what deist you are talking to and what you mean by "reject." Some outright reject all of The Bible because it is dogma. Some pick and choose what they agree with or what they find useful or insightful (eg the golden rule). There is also a group that call themselves christian deists. I have managed to lose the link to a good site for this group, but they are an interesting group. Thomas Jefferson was one of the most outspoken christian deists, he even went so far as to revise The Bible removing all miraculous events, thereby deismifying it. He believed that Jesus was trying to bring the Jews back to their deist roots.
As for the second part, no one can say for sure who believed what. Then, like now, religion was an important tool for gaining political influence, and it was not in one's best interest to come out agaisnt christianity. Frankly, anymore I don't even see the importance in that arguement. What does it matter what they believed? What is important is what they did and what intentions they had for the founding of this nation. People claim we were founded as a christian nation, but with little evidence. I also wonder why they think that a democracy is biblically based, Jesus himself seems like more of a communist to me, but I could be wrong.

#93 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 01:16 AM

I found that link to the christian deist site.
http://www.onr.com/user/bejo/

#94 philonetwenty

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:39 PM

CHRISTIAN DEISTS!

:) :rofl1: :tabletalk: :shiny: :rofl4:

Anyways. I m back to this forum, and it needs my help.

Super p120 to save the day!

Deists is the subject of this thread, not founding fathers.

Anywasy.

So deists don't believe in the Bible.

That's my point.

Nobody has refuted it.

Guess what, the BIlbe is FULL oaf people experienceing God's divine influence in their lives. God's divine PROTECCTINON too, which is what the DOF I relies on.

So there.

Deists tdont believe a word of the bible. Excep t maybe the first few verses.

#95 philonetwenty

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:41 PM

Wow, this thread seemed to go from "Deists reject The Bible" to "the founding fathers are christians/deists" rather quickly.
For the first part:  depends on what deist you are talking to and what you mean by "reject."  Some outright reject all of The Bible because it is dogma.  Some pick and choose what they agree with or what they find useful or insightful (eg the golden rule).  There is also a group that call themselves christian deists.  I have managed to lose the link to a good site for this group, but they are an interesting group.  Thomas Jefferson was one of the most outspoken christian deists, he even went so far as to revise The Bible removing all miraculous events, thereby deismifying it.  He believed that Jesus was trying to bring the Jews back to their deist roots.
As for the second part, no one can say for sure who believed what.  Then, like now, religion was an important tool for gaining political influence, and it was not in one's best interest to come out agaisnt christianity.  Frankly, anymore I don't even see the importance in that arguement.  What does it matter what they believed?  What is important is what they did and what intentions they had for the founding of this nation.  People claim we were founded as a christian nation, but with little evidence.  I also wonder why they think that a democracy is biblically based, Jesus himself seems like more of a communist to me, but I could be wrong.

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Jesus is neither commiunist not liberal. Jesus is Lord. end of story.

#96 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 03:54 PM

Guess what, the BIlbe is FULL oaf people experienceing God's divine influence in their lives. God's divine PROTECCTINON too, which is what the DOF I relies on

The Bible is full of stories that have experienced God's influence.
A deist like, say, Thomas Paine looks at these stories and believes them to be heresay. It is generally someone writing about the experience(s) of a different person. And that is assuming that the people did exist, which is something a deist may or may not believe.
Deists rely on their own experiences, not what other people say happened to them.

#97 philonetwenty

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 10:42 AM

Thank you, scitsofreaky. You just proved my point. Deists reject the Bible.

#98 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 17 November 2005 - 11:13 AM

Thank you, scitsofreaky. You just proved my point. Deists reject the Bible.

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Any time. Although it was a silly question, if deists believed The Bible, wouldn't they be Christians?

Deists tdont believe a word of the bible. Excep t maybe the first few verses.

I wouldn't say that. Most deists I am in contact with believe that God is the first cause, or that which caused the Universe as we know it to exist. Genesis starts after that, "In the begining was the Heavens and the Earth."




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