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#21 Evangelion

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 06:17 AM

That link only provided 8 people.


Yep, that's right. :)

Unless I missed something you only listed 8 people.


So what?

I don't have a detailed analysis for every single one of them; I draw my conclusion from the various essays I have read on the subject.  It might well be that when people say "majority of the FF", they actually mean the "Big Names" (to use Fortigurn's phrase), since this tends to be what most people mean when they speak of the FF.


If you mean the big names then yes but your claim of the majority is not accurate.


Please prove that it is not accurate. :)

I doubt, for example, that when the average American says "the Founding Fathers", the names of fifty-six different men spring immediately to the minds of his audience.  :tarkus:


That's how the Founding Fathers are defined. They are those who are responsible for both originating and establishing the political government, not just the big-named ones. You've only named a handful of the founding fathers who just happened to be more famous than the rest. But everyone knows that the term refers to all who were responsible. Whether people can recite the names of all 56 men is irrelevant. :popcorn:


Yes, that is how the Founding Fathers are defined. But in my experience, that is not usually what people mean when they refer to the Founding Fathers. For practical purposes, most people use "Founding Fathers" as a collective term for the "Big Names."

Notice also my quote from Till's essay, with particular reference from the Christian geezer who admits that Christians constituted as little as 5% of the population during the 1770s. :tarkus:

Okay, well I think we can safely say that it's a bit of an exageration to say most. I've read that most were Protestant, a couple were Catholic and some deists who didn't believe in organized religion.

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Do you have a source to prove that most were Protestant? I'd be very interested to see it. :book:

Edited by Evangelion, 11 October 2005 - 06:19 AM.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#22 Evangelion

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 06:19 AM

What was the purpose of quoting the First Amendment?  Just my curiousity.

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It was party of my body of evidence to prove that America was not founded as a Christian nation. :book:


No one made this claim. Well I know I didn't. :popcorn:


I know. :)

Well Stephen already exlained the significance of the 1st. Amendment.

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You don't say? :popcorn:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#23 Dianne

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 07:29 AM


If you mean the big names then yes but your claim of the majority is not accurate.


Please prove that it is not accurate. :)


Please list more than 8 deists, then you have your proof. 51% to be exact.

I doubt, for example, that when the average American says "the Founding Fathers", the names of fifty-six different men spring immediately to the minds of his audience.  :tarkus:


That's how the Founding Fathers are defined. They are those who are responsible for both originating and establishing the political government, not just the big-named ones. You've only named a handful of the founding fathers who just happened to be more famous than the rest. But everyone knows that the term refers to all who were responsible. Whether people can recite the names of all 56 men is irrelevant. :popcorn:


Yes, that is how the Founding Fathers are defined. But in my experience, that is not usually what people mean when they refer to the Founding Fathers. For practical purposes, most people use "Founding Fathers" as a collective term for the "Big Names."


Well that's wrong. Unless you wish to rewrite that the definition of Founding Fathers is based on Evangelions 'experience'.

The Founding Fathers includes every person who signed both the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution.

Notice also my quote from Till's essay, with particular reference from the Christian geezer who admits that Christians constituted as little as 5% of the population during the 1770s.  :tarkus:


So? :shrug: I didn't make a claim that most were Christian to begin with.

Do you have a source to prove that most were Protestant?  I'd be very interested to see it.  :book:


I didn't state that I could prove that most were Protestant, I said from what I have read, most were Protestant, a few were Roman Catholic and some were Deist.

I'll provide the article I have read as soon as you prove that most were Diests. When I say most, I mean 51%. :popcorn:

Edited by Dianne, 11 October 2005 - 07:57 AM.


#24 Flappie

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 07:33 AM

When I say most, I mean out of the 59, about 51%.  :popcorn:

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30 :D

22 to go Ev.

Edited by Flappie, 11 October 2005 - 07:33 AM.

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#25 Evangelion

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 08:07 AM

Well, I'd still like to see some proof that 51% of them were Protestants. :tarkus:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#26 Dianne

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 08:11 AM

Well, I'd still like to see some proof that 51% of them were Protestants.  :tarkus:

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I never made that claim. :popcorn:

#27 Adanac

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:20 AM

:rolleyes:

#28 Guest_Colter_*

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:39 AM

I think it's fair to say that many of the founding fathers of America believed in God, they believed in the freedom of religion contained within the teachings of Jesus. The only true Christian nation that I know of is the Vatican.

#29 Stephen

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:46 AM

More fodder......

From the Paris Peace Treaty of 1783:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish torestore...."



From the conclusion of the US Constitution.....

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names...."
... have mercy on those who waver; save others by snatching them out of the fire; have mercy on others, coupled with a fear of God, hating even the clothes stained by the flesh.

#30 Evangelion

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:54 AM

More fodder......

From the Paris Peace Treaty of 1783:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish torestore...."


Sorry, but what does this prove? :confused:

From the conclusion of the US Constitution.....

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names...."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


"Year of our Lord" was standard vocab for the day and still is (Anno Domini, remember?) regardless of whether or not you're religious - so I'm not really sure what this is intended to prove either. :shrug:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#31 Adanac

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:56 AM

Does it matter?

#32 Evangelion

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:58 AM

Does it matter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It does if people are trying to use it as an exuse to turn the US into a fundy state.

Which, of course, they are.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#33 Stephen

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:12 AM

More fodder......

From the Paris Peace Treaty of 1783:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

"It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish torestore...."


Sorry, but what does this prove? :confused:


It demonstrates that your earlier Treaty of Tripoli quote meant nothing.
... have mercy on those who waver; save others by snatching them out of the fire; have mercy on others, coupled with a fear of God, hating even the clothes stained by the flesh.

#34 Guest_Colter_*

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:14 AM

Does it matter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It does if people are trying to use it as an exuse to turn the US into a fundy state.

Which, of course, they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


FWIW, the fundy's overplayed their hand and now the moderate swing voters are none to happy. We, me, I see them as religious nut jobs. :sos:

#35 Stephen

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:15 AM

Does it matter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It does if people are trying to use it as an exuse to turn the US into a fundy state.

Which, of course, they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



With Gays getting married and the 10 commandments being removed from our courthouses, I doubt that a fundy state is anywhere in America's future..... but it would be far better than the atheist state we have now.
... have mercy on those who waver; save others by snatching them out of the fire; have mercy on others, coupled with a fear of God, hating even the clothes stained by the flesh.

#36 Adanac

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:18 AM

Does it matter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It does if people are trying to use it as an exuse to turn the US into a fundy state.

Which, of course, they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But none of us are. :shrug: Not even the Americans here.

#37 Evangelion

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:50 AM

Does it matter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It does if people are trying to use it as an exuse to turn the US into a fundy state.

Which, of course, they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But none of us are. :shrug: Not even the Americans here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I didn't mean here; I meant in the US! :doh:

But even on this thread we still have a couple of Yanks trying to re-write history. :book:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#38 Adanac

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 01:21 PM

Ev - math question.

What is

59 - 8

?

#39 CaptainCutshaw

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 01:21 PM

I've read that most were Protestant, a couple were Catholic and some deists who didn't believe in organized religion.

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That seems to be the generally accepted view. According to Wikipedia (at least until Phil120 or Ev decide to zealously 'correct' it) is:

"In terms of religious affiliation, the men mirrored the overwhelmingly Protestant character of American religious life at the time and were members of various denominations. Only two, Carroll and Fitzsimons, were Roman Catholics. A few were not particularly religious. Some were even appalled at organized religion: [url="http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm""]http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm."[/url]

Edited by CaptainCutshaw, 11 October 2005 - 01:44 PM.


#40 Huldah

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 01:25 PM

Ev - math question.

What is

59 - 8

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:smited:
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4.14




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