I wasn’t actually trying to build an argument with that comment. I don’t believe that God feels the need to justify every decision he makes, and therefore there isn’t an answer to every question. Personally I am satisfied not knowing everything, but that is unsatisfactory for some people.
It’s not a matter of not knowing everything, it ‘s a matter of knowing history in such a way as not to be refutable so one cannot easily be convinced of false superstitious versions of history. Science surely supplants thousands of cultures histories which are clearly false and based on the lack of scientific knowledge, since all men are born ignorant they invent explanations as to why they exist and how their history was. Think about how many histories you and I reject today we don't even know of or have never read of, of cultures past, even if we did read them we already know apriori via scientific knowledge that their supernatural components and claims about gods and spirits are false, you use the same method I do to rule out all other gods and supernatural phenomena of which you have never read or encountered.
What sort of responsibility do you think God should take? What do you propose that God should be doing?
First god knew beforehand all the children that would ever be born, their geographical locations, whether or not they would be born poor or into diseased times (this is where the lack of scientific knowledge ends up being really cruel, i.e. bubonic plague for instance)
Do you think that the only reason for God to test us is to know what he already knows?
Your missing the point, the form something takes determines its function, god being omniscient does not need to test people he himself built and is made of the exact same chemical and energetic constituents you find in those that believe in him, believers are just patterns and arrangements of matter and energy that would always choose god given the same circumstances 1000x over. CD’s ultimately can’t escape material causes (i.e. for instance autism, retardation, etc) which directly interfere with your ability and capability to know things, but there’s plenty of evidence even “healthy” people’s minds are defective in the same way if you believe in god.
Why is it a problem that God wants people to live a certain way?
It’s only a problem when god’s being unjust and not giving everyone a fair and equal shot at understanding. Which of course the biblical god did not do at all, even the bible is chalk full of errors (Mathew 8:28-34 and Jesus belief in demons, here jesus is misrepresenting reality to everyone watching him, sinning in broad daylight and perpetuating superstition instead of teaching them correct causal philosophy modern CD’s hold i.e. material causes are responsible for sickness and madness, etc).
You are looking at one point of view. Problems certainly can bring out the worst in people, but they also can bring out the best in people. If you took away the problems in our world, you would also not see extreme acts of sacrifice and love.
Yeah but there’s no certain knowledge and theres much knowledge that contradicts the bible, there should be no knowledge that contradicts the bible, but there is PLENTY of evidence that the bible is not true god’s book, omniscience and omnipotence is opposed to error. Every word of god can’t prove true if the evidence falsifies those word statements.
The tests are different for different people, but the judgment is also different. What is wrong with that?
You didn’t answer my question: What does an omniscient god who DESIGNED every human being on the planet NEED with tests, he designed the systems that make people decide one way or another, and these people given the same set of circumstances would ALWAYS decide the same way, an omniscient god DOESN’T need to test people because he’s not IGNORANT of how people work. But the biblical god IS ignorant of how people work that’s why he needs to TEST them before he gives them immortality, i.e. a matter of trust, which is a matter of ignorance for the bible god, which means god is ignorant of how people work himself, because how people work is a matter of the quality of the form something takes which determines the functioning. All of us are mechanical beings, without oxygen you are unable to think, without proper nutrients, and sleep your memory and intellectual ability is affected. It’s all physical, form determines function. The quality of the resources your mother ingested before you were born helped determine what abilities you ended up having, a factor totally beyond your control.
Or take for instance deformed babies that end up living but have deformities for the rest of their live, ostracized from normal human relationships before modern surgery or abandoned or left by superstitious parents. That’s god’s ’design’ in action, it serves no purpose at all.
The weather and displacement of earths resources for a start, the total lack of scientific understanding of cause and effect to reduce the superstition and belief in other gods, god so hated. I mean the bible god wasn’t doing anyone a favor by leaving people and even the jews on their own with no technological or scientific knowledge.
Why is technological and scientific knowledge so important? In a lot of ways, our higher knowledge has allowed us to mess things up in greater ways. We still have pain, sorrow, and death but in different ways. I’m not sure that more knowledge is the answer.
Because 1) It shows god is truly omniscient and not some fake false god. Obviously miracles didn’t convince anyone, but then again god didn’t actually change peoples standard of living for the better to relieve them monotonous work, just imagine a society with electricity way back when and modern farming methods, almost all the time could be spent helping other people and worshiping god because they’d be free from the daily grind of survival and could focus significantly more timeon being good Christians and spreading the gospel itself. The problem is, the argument that an omniscient and omnipotent god took 1000 years to write a saving book, and then took another many thousand years to spread his message is a sloppy and inefficient god! I mean come on, is that the best the master of the universe can come up with? Even *man* could do better then that today with the internet, news travels around the world in seconds and takes less then a day to get to everyone, yet here we have the master of the universe himself, who has all and even more sophisticated technology a civilization of man inhabiting the entire galaxy would have, uses the most backward and cravenly ignorant method in existence to tell people about himself, its ridiculous to believe that an eternal god who knows everything for all time and knows the best future technologies would use something so outdated and inefficient as the bible as a method of communication.
It’s much more plausible to believe the Jews were just a bunch of superstitious people who had no access to science or technology to make their lives better and thought natural processes were god, and misinterpreted natural processes as miracles of god. History shows us people were at their dumbest before scientific times.
I’m not sure that telling everybody all the answers will result in an ideal situation either. I don’t have much experience teaching, but for myself I don’t learn well from someone just telling me answers.
Uhm the ideal situation is not what’s at issue, it’s teaching people the method to distinguish truth from lies, which god never took the time to do, he just said “believe me” and constant failures ensued, the problem is of course that, an omniscient god can’t even in principle fail, even for beings that have free will, he has the power to solve any problem in any manner (including the most peaceful and nonviolent ones).
If people rejected god just because they do so out of irrational means rather then rational ones then I don’t have a problem if evidence and effort expended by god was sufficient for an omni-max god, but think about it. The reason most people reject god today is not on irrational grounds, there is plenty of scientific evidence and just general cruelty in nature to refute biblical claims to godhood. I mean even with Christadelphia you people are split on fundamental issues - i.e. old earth vs young earth, progressive creationism, vs young earth, versus theistic evolution (DJP, and emerging evolutionary christadelphians, which liberalized the whole bible making it pointless). If death existed before the fall in the animal kingdom and god evolved man to his present state, obviously there is no need for salvation because death always was a natural part of the creation and part of how god “created”.
The bible’s own internal evidence is self-refuting as well like Mathew 8 where Jesus exorcises demons, yet according to CD theology demons don’t exist, they are just natural causes, so why pretend and lie to these people and put on a show? There is NO reason to compromise and lie, after all most CD’s take a no compromise position on biblical theology but they allow Jesus to get away with it to save their belief in god, which is ultimately irrational because they can’t accept the fact that Jesus was mad and superstitious and sinned by misrepresenting reality – being a tale bearer, rather then a truth teller about the nature of disease and material causes.
I think there has always been reasons to doubt the existence of God (why is that a problem?). God is not the only answer to unexplained phenomena, however, he may be a reasonable choice.
There is a difference between doubt and complete refutation of allegedly gods own message by the natural record of cosmological and geological history which “God” (i.e. the real god not the bible god) left behind which man can’t corrupt, like the bible can be corrupted because man had his hands all over it.
1) The sun will explode and run out of fuel, this is a fact, in fact we have billions of stars showing us this. If you are a CD and believe in an old universe, whence is gods intervention? In fact if you’re an OEC or a TEC, god will have to move people one day to another planet simply because he has never violated (or left evidence) that the natural laws he set in motion have ever changed. This refutes the promise that Abraham will inherit the land of Israel forever and ever as well as Christians reigning over the earth for an eternity, when the sun will be dead in ~5 billion more years.
2) Meteor impacts on the earth over the earths billion year history, if god created the earth why exactly would he allow meteors that crash into the earth that are just as devastating as atomic bombs? Given the geological record, whence comes gods intervention?
3) The plant and animal kingdoms have existed on the earth for billions of years living and dying, fighting for survival, and shedding blood, not exactly the kind “good” creation you’d expect from an omnipotent being, in fact it’s downright cruel. Humanity itself is well over 100,000 years old, and this is proven scientific fact. If humanity is this old, god sure wasted 90,000 of those years not writing the bible and spreading it to mankind (i.e. where was god during the previous 90K years before the last ~4-5000 when the bible was first invented?)
We definitely have better technology, and we can certainly extend someone’s life, but for what? I’m not sure that we are really that much better off to be honest, and in the process of advancing our knowledge we are also messing up a planet that was working pretty well.
Give me a break, have you looked at the cosmological and geological records of earth and on other planets? If you think having meteors slam into the earth every so often is “Great design” compared to our own technological wonders you got to be kidding me, also the last ice age which killed off a great many things was perfectly natural, most extinctions happened well before man ever existed on planet earth, over 90% of life that has existed on this planet was not killed by us, so if you think that’s a planet not messing itself up, I don’t know what is. Human beings are intelligent, they have the power to reverse changes and solve problems, nature just blindly plunges itself towards self destruction, maybe you should check out the history of the birth and death of stars sometime, even if the earth worked perfectly, once a star collapses it engulfs everything within a certain radius of itself when it runs out of fuel, not exactly “perfectly” working now is it? Pretty sloppy if you ask me.
Edited by mordecai, 17 June 2005 - 07:11 PM.