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Causal Philosophy - Are CDs Materialists?


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#41 Mercia2

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 07:22 PM

Mercia that's just the spiritual wisdom of Egypt and Assyria and Babylon and Persia and Greece and Rome and Turkey.

It is the wisdom of Egypt, and that is why the double slit experiment revealed to the scientists that they would never be allowed to understand the fifth dimension. Quantum Physics proves 1 Corinthians 2-3 in this context (what is spiritual is intentionally concealed from the understanding of the natural), it is proper metaphysics.

Science can prove we have a matter body, and a spirit body (if you study Quantum Physics it more than implies this), but it cannot righfully tell us anything else (everything added to that is speculation), as the fifth dimension cannot be understood by man, thats why they created the "multiverse" theory to try to explain the impossibilty of it away.

Quantum physics exposes [this linear] materialists as in error.

Edited by Mercia2, 09 June 2005 - 10:12 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#42 mordecai_*

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 07:35 PM

Mercia that's just the spiritual wisdom of Egypt and Assyria and Babylon and Persia and Greece and Rome and Turkey.

It is the wisdom of Egypt, and that is why the double slit experiment revealed to the scientists that they would never be allowed to understand the fifth dimension. Quantum Physics proves 1 Corinthians 2-3 in this context (what is spiritual is intentionally concealed from the understanding of the natural), it is proper metaphysics.

Science can prove we have a matter body, and a spirit body (if you study Quantum Physics it more than implies this), but it cannot righfully tell us anything else (everything added to that is speculation), as the fifth dimension cannot be understood by man, thats why they created the "multiverse" theory to try to explain the impossibilty of it away.

Quantum physics exposes materialists as in error.


Lest you forget quantum physics is materialist science, how you can say quantum physics is not a part of naturalism / materialism is nonsense.

A materialist is a person who believes in cause and effect, a person who believes that things actually have measurable existance, quantum physics certainly qualifies as measurable existance unless you'd like to dispute otherwise?

Edited by mordecai, 07 June 2005 - 07:36 PM.


#43 Mercia2

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 07:37 PM

Your definition of what is materialism is not mine.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#44 Mercia2

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 08:40 AM

quantum physics certainly qualifies as measurable existance unless you'd like to dispute otherwise?

Quantum Physics is 'not measurable science'.
It is also anti-reductionist.

Edited by Mercia2, 09 June 2005 - 08:41 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#45 Mercia2

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 08:51 AM

Things at this level all behave as probabilities, not as objects with a fixed behavior. When scientists began studying small particles, they found that Newtonian physics no longer held true. Things no longer had to have a cause to produce an effect – for example, radioactive particles decay for no apparent reason.

Another example is that very small particles cannot be determined to be in an exact place. Instead, they exist in a kind of "probability-space" - there is a certain probability of them being here, and a certain probability of them being there. Not only that, they aren't really either here or there, they are both here and there at the same time. Infact, scientists recently divided an atom into two of its wave-functions (another term for probability-space) - essentially creating a situation in which the whole atom was both in one place and in another, at the same time.

Edited by Mercia2, 09 June 2005 - 08:54 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#46 Mercia2

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 09:00 AM

This is why Harvard etc and world leading scientists are taking 'Global Conciousness' projects seriously, and having interesting results, because of what Quantum Physics has revealed.

Edited by Mercia2, 09 June 2005 - 09:00 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#47 Guest_Colter_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 09:37 AM

Marcia,

I like your views and insight into the spirit. I think you "get it." I have a contribution to this discusion on spirit and material reality.

Because of the presence in your minds of the Thought Adjuster, it is no more of a mystery for you to know the mind of God than for you to be sure of the consciousness of knowing any other mind, human or superhuman. Religion and social consciousness have this in common: They are predicated on the consciousness of other-mindness. The technique whereby you can accept another's idea as yours is the same whereby you may "let the mind which was in Christ be also in you."

What is human experience? It is simply any interplay between an active and questioning self and any other active and external reality. The mass of experience is determined by depth of concept plus totality of recognition of the reality of the external. The motion of experience equals the force of expectant imagination plus the keenness of the sensory discovery of the external qualities of contacted reality. The fact of experience is found in self-consciousness plus other-existences--other-thingness, other-mindness, and other-spiritness.

Man very early becomes conscious that he is not alone in the world or the universe. There develops a natural spontaneous self-consciousness of other-mindness in the environment of selfhood. Faith translates this natural experience into religion, the recognition of God as the reality--source, nature, and destiny--of other-mindness. But such a knowledge of God is ever and always a reality of personal experience. If God were not a personality, he could not become a living part of the real religious experience of a human personality.

The element of error present in human religious experience is directly proportional to the content of materialism which contaminates the spiritual concept of the Universal Father. Man's prespirit progression in the universe consists in the experience of divesting himself of these erroneous ideas of the nature of God and of the reality of pure and true spirit. Deity is more than spirit, but the spiritual approach is the only one possible to ascending man.

Prayer is indeed a part of religious experience, but it has been wrongly emphasized by modern religions, much to the neglect of the more essential communion of worship. The reflective powers of the mind are deepened and broadened by worship. Prayer may enrich the life, but worship illuminates destiny.

Revealed religion is the unifying element of human existence. Revelation unifies history, co-ordinates geology, astronomy, physics, chemistry, biology, sociology, and psychology. Spiritual experience is the real soul of man's cosmos.

#48 pantrog_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 01:08 PM

It's 1am, and the fact that this is a way of passing the time for you does not inspire me. I'll try and care tomorrow.


Sorry forti I really thought you where going to go into information theory for a second there - it's as a neat subject. oh well onwards.

So when I turn to history for verification or falsification of the Scriptures, that's not a case of deriving from observed reality?

And when I turn to the material world around me for verification or falsification of the Scriptures, that's not a case of deriving from observed reality?

And when I turn to ancient non-Biblical manuscripts for verification or falsification of the Scriptures, that's not a case of deriving from observed reality?

And when I turn to archaeology and paleontology for verification or falsification of the Scriptures, that's not a case of deriving from observed reality?


ouch, is it ok if I give Mordecai a hand?

The material world .... I can think of at least two instance where major CD publications have made misleading comments about physics. (go on ... challenge me!)

Well Ev you do disagree with modern 'archaeology and paleontology' when in suits you ends (cf. the entire carbon dating buisness).

Edited by pantrog, 09 June 2005 - 03:32 PM.


#49 Adanac

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 02:44 PM

It's 1am, and the fact that this is a way of passing the time for you does not inspire me. I'll try and care tomorrow.


Sorry forti I really thought you where going to go into information theory for a second there - it's as a neat subject. oh well onwards.

I think what Fortigurn is saying that there is no onwards because there is no point in going onwards with someone who appears to just be here to pass the time of day.

#50 Evangelion

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 02:49 PM

The material world .... I can think of at least two instance where major CD publications have made misleading comments about physics. (go on ... challenge me!)


I believe you. It would not surprise me in the slightest.

Well Ev you do disagree with modern 'archaeology and paleontology' when in suits you ends (cf. the entire carbon dating buisness).


No, I don't disagree with them "when it suits my ends"; I disagree with them when I cannot see any justification for their conclusions.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#51 pantrog_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 03:31 PM

I think what Fortigurn is saying that there is no onwards because there is no point in going onwards with someone who appears to just be here to pass the time of day.


touchy! well its not my fault, Forti said he was going to draw similarities between Information theory (which as we all know is a branch of statistical mathematics associated with information entropy and data transmission) and all I got where 3 lines. I was a bit disappointed to tell you the truth.

I believe you. It would not surprise me in the slightest.


Spoil sport.

No, I don't disagree with them "when it suits my ends"; I disagree with them when I cannot see any justification for their conclusions.


OK (let me know if we're entering an area which is out-of-bounds) but does this mean you reject their conclusions because of failings in their experimental techniques? Or because the conclusions _must_ be wrong irrespective of the evidence?

Edited by pantrog, 09 June 2005 - 03:33 PM.


#52 Evangelion

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 03:48 PM

I believe you. It would not surprise me in the slightest.


Spoil sport.


It's not my fault if I don't conform to your preconceptions.

No, I don't disagree with them "when it suits my ends"; I disagree with them when I cannot see any justification for their conclusions.


OK (let me know if we're entering an area which is out-of-bounds) but does this mean you reject their conclusions because of failings in their experimental techniques? Or because the conclusions _must_ be wrong irrespective of the evidence?


The former, of course. (With the proviso that it's not just "failings of their experimental techniques", but a failure to produce the evidence to support their conclusions.)

The latter would be neither rational nor defensible.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#53 pantrog_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 03:59 PM

It's not my fault if I don't conform to your preconceptions.


I was optimistic Adanac would bite, I suspected you would probably know better.

The former, of course. (With the proviso that it's not just "failings of their experimental techniques", but a failure to produce the evidence to support their conclusions.)


Getting down to specifics here are you criticial of dating techniques, or do you feel they have not dated enough material?

#54 Adanac

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:04 PM

It's not my fault if I don't conform to your preconceptions.


I was optimistic Adanac would bite, I suspected you would probably know better.

OK, how about this: we're a pretty hopeless lot sometimes when it comes to physics.

But so what?

#55 Evangelion

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:08 PM

It's not my fault if I don't conform to your preconceptions.


I was optimistic Adanac would bite, I suspected you would probably know better.


It's not really a case of "knowing better"; it's a case of familiarity with the standard script.

Quite apart from my university years (where religious and philosophical debate was my meat and bread on an almost day-to-day basis) I spent a couple of years on the Internet Infidels Discussion Board. If you've ever been there, you'll know it's a place where the guys and gals play hardball.

And I mean hardball. :fortigurn:

The former, of course. (With the proviso that it's not just "failings of their experimental techniques", but a failure to produce the evidence to support their conclusions.)


Getting down to specifics here are you criticial of dating techniques, or do you feel they have not dated enough material?


I am critical of dating techniques.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#56 Adanac

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:11 PM

I am critical of dating techniques.

Even so you still managed to snag Huldah.

#57 Evangelion

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:21 PM

Disclaimer: No "dating techniques" were used in the formation of this relationship.

:tarkus:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#58 pantrog_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:32 PM

OK, how about this: we're a pretty hopeless lot sometimes when it comes to physics.

But so what?


I'm sure we'll take it for a spin another day. :D

it's a case of familiarity with the standard script.


hmmmmm, hmmmmm originality required. What do you suggest? My core knowledge base is biology so I'm rather restricted to the well worn tracks outside a certain locked forum.

And I mean hardball.


Prison rules Internet forum chat, huh?

Even so you still managed to snag Huldah.


Huldah?

#59 Evangelion

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 04:51 PM

it's a case of familiarity with the standard script.


hmmmmm, hmmmmm originality required. What do you suggest?


I suggest that you restrict your comments to those which are relevant and profitable to our discussion.

My core knowledge base is biology so I'm rather restricted to the well worn tracks outside a certain locked forum.


Those well-worn tracks need not consist of cheap point-scoring and deliberate provocation.

And I mean hardball.


Prison rules Internet forum chat, huh?


A great deal more structured than "prison rules", but only a little more lawful.

Even so you still managed to snag Huldah.


Huldah?


My Fiance.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#60 pantrog_*

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Posted 09 June 2005 - 05:32 PM

I suggest that you restrict your comments to those which are relevant and profitable to our discussion.


Well this evening I've suggested two possible lines for discussion - for one you illustrated yourself as too bored/familiar with the script to be bothered talking about it, you did however helpfully illustrate how 'manly' you are at forum discussion.

For the other (radionucleotide dating techniques) you haven't yet clarified whether we're allowed to talk about them or not. Instead you initiated a line of dialogue which led to your Fiance (congratulations by the way).

Instead of accepting my invitation to initiate positive dialogue ('What do you suggest?') you took the chance to gripe about some rebuke (which you probably deserved) which I gave you last week.

so please, lets not give each other too much of a hard time about relevance. :mellow:

Edited by pantrog, 09 June 2005 - 05:43 PM.





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