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#241 Matt Smith

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 12:25 PM

I refer you to the attached document. :coffee:


Can't d/l it Ev....

#242 Evangelion

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 01:09 PM

Hmmm. It seems to be something to do with the board settings. :book:

I'll ask Kay. :popcorn:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#243 RobLawson_*

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 02:39 PM

This is probably showing my ignorance, but where does the Bible say that God is omniscient?? I currently can't see how it is logically possible

#244 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:23 PM

This is probably showing my ignorance, but where does the Bible say that God is omniscient?? I currently can't see how it is logically possible


I'd say that this is a pretty good start. :book:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#245 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:25 PM

  • Freedom and Forenowledge



    Problem: According to Christian ideology, God is omniscient, possessing knowledge of all things, whether past, present or future. However, the same ideology teaches that human beings have free will to act and think. If therefore, God knows all things – and interacts with the universe on the basis of this knowledge – are humans truly autonomous?


    The answer from Theological Fatalism

    Pike (1970) postulates that since God has foreknowledge of all events, they may be considered to be events that will necessarily occur.

    His argument may be expressed thus:

  • Necessarily, if God foreknows x, then x will happen.

  • Necessarily, God foreknows x.

  • Ergo, x will necessarily happen.

Edited by Evangelion, 22 December 2005 - 03:26 PM.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#246 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:30 PM

Pike uses the following analogy to demonstrate that the foreknowledge of God necessarily precludes human autonomy:
Jones mows his lawn on Saturday afternoon. Since God is omniscient, He knew eighty years ago that Jones would mow his lawn on Saturday afternoon. And since God cannot be mistaken, when Saturday arrives, Jones is not able to refrain from mowing his lawn.

God’s belief that Jones would mow his lawn, is “tucked away” in the past, and cannot be changed, so that Jones cannot affect it in any way. Since God’s beliefs are infallible, Jones does not have within in his power to do anything other than what God believes he will do.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#247 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:31 PM

Pike formulates his argument in several steps:
• God’s being omniscient necessarily implies that if Jones mows his lawn on Saturday afternoon, then God believed at an earlier time, that Jones would mow his lawn on Saturday afternoon.

• Necessarily, all of God’s beliefs are true.

• No one has the power to make a contradiction true.

• No one has the power to erase someone’s past beliefs, that is, to bring it about that something believed in the past by someone was not believed in the past by that person.

• No one has the power to erase someone’s existence in the past, that is, to bring it about that someone who existed in the past did not exist in the past.

• So if God believed that Jones would mow his lawn on Saturday afternoon, Jones can refrain from mowing his lawn only if one of the following alternatives is true:

i. Jones has the power to make God’s belief false.
ii. Jones has the power to erase God’s past belief; or
iii. Jones has the power to erase God’s past existence.

• But alternative (I) is impossible. (This follows from steps 2 and 3.)

• And alternative (ii) is impossible. (This follows from step 4.)

• And alternative (iii) is impossible. (This follows from step 5.)

• Therefore, if God believes that Jones will mow his lawn on Saturday afternoon, Jones does not have the power to refrain from mowing his lawn on Saturday afternoon; that is to say, Jones is not free.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#248 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:38 PM

The flaw in Pike’s reasoning occurs in point 6 of his argument. He presents three alternatives by which Jones might escape the fatalistic consequences of God’s foreknowledge – but he does this on the assumption that God’s precognition automatically becomes the cause of those events of which God is precognisant. However, this is not the case.

God's foreknowledge is that of the final outcome; the actual event which will occur,on the basis of an individual's ultimate choice. He knows what we will do because that is what we will do.

Should we choose to buy a certain model of car in the future, He will know our choice in advance. Were we to choose an alternative model, He would know this too. His knowledge is predicated upon our final decisions; it is our choices that determine the specifics of His knowledge.

The mere foreknowledge of an event has no bearing upon its probable outcome. The theological fatalist is committed to his claim that causal constraint is only removed when God’s foreknowledge no longer exists – but this notion is unintelligible, and must therefore be false.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#249 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:40 PM

  • Pike’s sixth point needs to be amended on the basis of our discovery that foreknowledge per se, possesses no causal properties. All that is necessary is the addition of a fourth alternative:

  • So if God believed that Jones would mow his lawn on Saturday afternoon, Jones can refrain from mowing his lawn only if one of the following alternatives is true:

    i. Jones has the power to make God’s belief false.
    ii. Jones has the power to erase God’s past belief; or
    iii. Jones has the power to erase God’s past existence.
    iv. Jones has the power to act in a different way – and if he were to act in that way, God would have believed differently.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#250 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:41 PM

William Lane Craig (a Christian philosopher/theologian) has summarised the argument in these words:


Jones does not mow the lawn because God foreknows; God foreknows, because Jones will mow the lawn. This does not mean that Jones’ action causes God’s foreknowledge – the word “because” is used here to indicate a logical, rather than a causal, relation.

God’s foreknowledge is chronologically prior to Jones’ action, but Jones’ action is logically prior to God’s foreknowledge. The reason that God knows Jones will mow his lawn, is that Jones will mow his lawn.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#251 Evangelion

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:43 PM

The preceding material was taken from a tutorial presentation that I delivered on the subject for one of my university courses. :tarkus:

There's a diagram which helps to make it clearer, but I can't produce it here until we sort out the problem that prevents me from uploading attachments. :book:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#252 Winston_*

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 04:09 PM

Quality stuff!

Can this model be adjusted to include God acting to change the situation? eg. 'God raised up.....'

#253 RobLawson_*

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 04:21 PM


This is probably showing my ignorance, but where does the Bible say that God is omniscient?? I currently can't see how it is logically possible


I'd say that this is a pretty good start. :book:


this doesnt say it definitely, (definitively?, nm), but yeah its a start.

your point of future actions being logically prior to God's knowledge, clearly shows the logical acceptance of the idea tho :clap2:

#254 Evangelion

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 08:14 AM

Quality stuff!


:thank:

Can this model be adjusted to include God acting to change the situation? eg. 'God raised up.....'


I don't think it would actually require any adjustment. The model would remain the same: God's foreknowledge is of the final outcome, regardless of the number of slips 'twixt cup and lip. :tarkus:

Edited by Evangelion, 23 December 2005 - 08:14 AM.

'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#255 Evangelion

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 08:14 AM



This is probably showing my ignorance, but where does the Bible say that God is omniscient?? I currently can't see how it is logically possible


I'd say that this is a pretty good start. :book:


this doesnt say it definitely, (definitively?, nm), but yeah its a start.

your point of future actions being logically prior to God's knowledge, clearly shows the logical acceptance of the idea tho :clap2:


Cheers. :coffee:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#256 Evangelion

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Posted 28 December 2005 - 08:58 AM

Attachments are now working! :first:

My tutorial paper is attached to this post, for anyone interested. :coffee:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#257 Matt Smith

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 03:36 PM

Attachments are now working! :first:

My tutorial paper is attached to this post, for anyone interested. :coffee:


Thanks dude!!! :cdelph:

#258 Evangelion

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 04:30 AM

Cheers! :coffee:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.




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