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#201 Adanac

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 06:01 PM

My sentiments exactly, Grace.

#202 Fortigurn

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 08:01 PM

Yes, but could he have obeyed?  Did he have genuine free will?  Was it possible that he could have obeyed the commanment?

Of course, just like any of us.

Ok, fine.

Do you believe that God made man mortal, or do you belive that mortality was the punishment for sin?


I don't believe flesh and blood can last forever and God told Adam that when he sinned he would return to the dust.


Do you believe that he was already returning to the dust, and that Adam's sin had nothing to do with him returning to the dust?

Do you believe that God made man prone to sin, or did man become prone to sin subsequent to the fall?  If there was a fall?


He was prone to sin prior to the fall, obviously - he sinned.


That only shows he was capable of sin.

#203 Fortigurn

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 08:03 PM

Those deaths will occur regardless of the model we use. You know that. You're not trying to avoid several billion deaths. You're trying to contrive several billion rewards of perfection and avoidance of suffering.


with respect, and I appreciate we will disagree, I don't consider several billion unavoidable deaths 'glorious'.

Nor do I. Why would you think that I would consider that glorious?

A pertinent explanation after creation-in-definitive state seems relatively efficient.


More detail please.

#204 Adanac

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 08:46 PM

Do you believe that he was already returning to the dust, and that Adam's sin had nothing to do with him returning to the dust?

Genesis 3:19 answers your question.

He was prone to sin prior to the fall, obviously - he sinned.


That only shows he was capable of sin.


Same thing. There is no mention of any change in the dustableness of Adam - the things that changed didn't affect him as far as that is concerned. What changed was circumstances but his ability to sin, in himself, remained the same.

#205 Fortigurn

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 09:52 PM

Do you believe that he was already returning to the dust, and that Adam's sin had nothing to do with him returning to the dust?

Genesis 3:19 answers your question.

You and I could read that passage two different ways. How do you read it?

He was prone to sin prior to the fall, obviously - he sinned.


That only shows he was capable of sin.


Same thing. There is no mention of any change in the dustableness of Adam - the things that changed didn't affect him as far as that is concerned. What changed was circumstances but his ability to sin, in himself, remained the same.


So there was no change in Adam?

#206 mordecai_*

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 09:56 PM

Still for god being such a good omniscient teacher, Saul is rife with belief in ghosts:

Then said Saul unto his servants: 'Seek me a woman that divineth by a ghost, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.' And his servants said to him: 'Behold, there is a woman that divineth by a ghost at En-dor.'
8
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said: 'Divine unto me, I pray thee, by a ghost, and bring me up whomsoever I shall name unto thee.'

Edited by mordecai, 06 June 2005 - 09:56 PM.


#207 mordecai_*

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 10:00 PM

er... well just our luck. You wake up and find you exist in a universe with an omnipotent being who is only nice to you under certain conditions. It could have been worse .. but given the vast majority of humans are not going into the CD kingdom ... we could have been luckier.


I don’t know what the problem is for people. God has given us every indication that he exists, we have the ability to seek after him, but most people don’t.

Whose fault is that? You can blame God if you like but it’s not his fault, it’s man’s fault.

And who designed man? GOD! So therefore by proxy god caused all this to happen, and he foreknew it all, what a swell guy!

The fact is any defect in the race is not the races fault but gods since the race operates on faulty hardware which he made faulty to begin with. How are autistics or retarded people "at fault" for not seeking god when they aren't even intellectually capable of doing so? Certainly if gods going to be fair he has to give everyone equal intellectual capacity or else he's inflicting natural laws and awry biological development on people that they cannot prevent and god is directly responsible for their rather unjust deaths.

You can't say god wants to save people and loves humanity in one breath while he's killing the unborn or very young and undeveloped on the right through the natural laws of nature and biology which the bible emphatically states he sustains and controls. Certainly he could be doing a better job at the reigns being omnipotent eh?

Edited by mordecai, 06 June 2005 - 10:01 PM.


#208 Fortigurn

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 10:02 PM

Still for god being such a good omniscient teacher, Saul is rife with belief in ghosts:

Then said Saul unto his servants: 'Seek me a woman that divineth by a ghost, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.' And his servants said to him: 'Behold, there is a woman that divineth by a ghost at En-dor.'
8
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said: 'Divine unto me, I pray thee, by a ghost, and bring me up whomsoever I shall name unto thee.'

What has Saul's superstition to do with God's omniscience?

#209 Adanac

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 10:22 PM

Mordecai: why do you continue to judge God on your own preconceptions, your own biased sense of justice, your own philosophies and your own intellect? You can continue to blaspheme God all you like but it's going to have no affect on those who can see through your non-arguments.

#210 mordecai_*

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 10:51 PM

Still for god being such a good omniscient teacher, Saul is rife with belief in ghosts:

Then said Saul unto his servants: 'Seek me a woman that divineth by a ghost, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.' And his servants said to him: 'Behold, there is a woman that divineth by a ghost at En-dor.'
8
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said: 'Divine unto me, I pray thee, by a ghost, and bring me up whomsoever I shall name unto thee.'

What has Saul's superstition to do with God's omniscience?

It has everything to do with god's omniscience, the fact that his own people could be superstitious speaks volumes about either

1) The inferiority of the brain's design a sign that god is not capable of producing minds that can seperate truth from error
or
2) God's own inability to teach people that such things dont exist

How can an omnipotent being fail in such a task when he has direct access to his chosen people all the time. How can it be modern schools do better then god ever has and he's the master of the universe and has existed for an eternity? Why is teaching someone a simple universal truth so hard for the lord of universe himself if he and his designs are not incompetent, when they should be functional?

Such odd facts are at odds with an omniscient god, an all knowing being wouldn't design such a mind because it contradicts the claim that he's omniscient and capable of doing anything (solving any problem). It's strange that all the biblical characters were a superstitious lot and yet they had direct access to god, seems kinda pointless if gods not going to teach them about natural law to keep them from sinning against him. It's like he's perpetually stupid slapping his forehead whenever his created beings stumble once again (which he knew beforehand btw) into stupidity when he can prevent it by teaching them the rules and laws of reasoning to keep their minds clean of superstition.

Edited by mordecai, 06 June 2005 - 11:14 PM.


#211 Adanac

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 11:24 PM

When will this nonsense cease? For a start, Mord, Saul was not one of God's people - he was an superstitious fool who didn't have a religious bone in his body.

And you presuppose that God's intention is that everyone be perfect and sinless? Why do you think that? Why do you think that God's intention is that everyone should live perfect lives in order to be in God's good books. Perhaps that's your warped view of Christianity but it's not what the Bible says. What you should really do is read the Bible and study it before making all these arguments against nothing, because that's exactly what you're arguing against - things that don't exist!

#212 Mercia2

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 11:27 PM

And who designed man? GOD! So therefore by proxy god caused all this to happen, and he foreknew it all, what a swell guy!

When someone gets run over by a drunk driving a Ford motorcar, do you blame the drunken driver? Or Mr Ford?

Edited by Mercia2, 06 June 2005 - 11:30 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#213 Fortigurn

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 11:32 PM

Still for god being such a good omniscient teacher, Saul is rife with belief in ghosts:

Then said Saul unto his servants: 'Seek me a woman that divineth by a ghost, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.' And his servants said to him: 'Behold, there is a woman that divineth by a ghost at En-dor.'
8
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said: 'Divine unto me, I pray thee, by a ghost, and bring me up whomsoever I shall name unto thee.'

What has Saul's superstition to do with God's omniscience?

It has everything to do with god's omniscience, the fact that his own people could be superstitious speaks volumes about either

1) The inferiority of the brain's design a sign that god is not capable of producing minds that can seperate truth from error
or
2) God's own inability to teach people that such things dont exist

What you mean is that you find it incredible that a finite and fallible being could fail to understand or believe certain facts.

How do you explain the fact that some people don't understand maths, despite maths being demonstrably and unavoidably true?

#214 mordecai_*

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 11:48 PM


And who designed man? GOD! So therefore by proxy god caused all this to happen, and he foreknew it all, what a swell guy!

When someone gets run over by a drunk driving a Ford motorcar, do you blame the drunken driver? Or Mr Ford?

If mr ford was in control of the laws of nature and is capable of preventing it then yes, after all, isn't that what miracles are for? Certainly god could design a universe in which all living beings are created perfectly, and indestructable (while they are active) but turn off after a set period of time, and during that time they can choose whether or not to believe in god.

Certainly that would be a better system yes? And certainly because god is our imagination certainly he is capable of doing what I so described? Considering an omniscient god would have thought of such a system (or much better then what I described) and didn't do it that alone proves certain religious gods are not omniscient (i.e. lack of imagination).

Edited by mordecai, 06 June 2005 - 11:53 PM.


#215 mordecai_*

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 11:51 PM

Still for god being such a good omniscient teacher, Saul is rife with belief in ghosts:

Then said Saul unto his servants: 'Seek me a woman that divineth by a ghost, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.' And his servants said to him: 'Behold, there is a woman that divineth by a ghost at En-dor.'
8
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said: 'Divine unto me, I pray thee, by a ghost, and bring me up whomsoever I shall name unto thee.'

What has Saul's superstition to do with God's omniscience?

It has everything to do with god's omniscience, the fact that his own people could be superstitious speaks volumes about either

1) The inferiority of the brain's design a sign that god is not capable of producing minds that can seperate truth from error
or
2) God's own inability to teach people that such things dont exist

What you mean is that you find it incredible that a finite and fallible being could fail to understand or believe certain facts.

How do you explain the fact that some people don't understand maths, despite maths being demonstrably and unavoidably true?


But thats the problem for you not me, my claim is an omniscient god has no excuse for designing defective people to purposely inflict chance events on processes that make people autistic, etc. Had you been born one of these people being locked inside an inferiorly developed mind you would have been pre-destined to destruction. When you try to model yourself in other persons shoes of this world the injustice is apparent. You see all of this could have easily been you or anyone, and this is not a praiseworthy attribute in any kind of god. Maybe you need a family member to suffer from a severely mentally damaging condition and watch in horror as knowing god knew in the beginning that this family member was pre-destined to destruction, he wasn't even given the chance to function properly, and is now stuck only functioning at the level of a child or less for the rest of his life.

He (god) can make people capable of understanding anything he so desires but he first has to give that capability to people and desigin it into the hardware. And he could make people indestructable and incapable of nature inflicting things upon them while they are alive while at the same time giving them a finite lifetime where they shut down for destruction after a period of time. i.e. just imagine aging except people can't kill you and nature can't hurt you, but you still age and die, but no one is able to effect this process but god.

Edited by mordecai, 07 June 2005 - 12:01 AM.


#216 Mercia2

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 12:27 AM

If mr ford was in control of the laws of nature and is capable of preventing it then yes, after all, isn't that what miracles are for? Certainly god could design a universe in which all living beings are created perfectly, and indestructable (while they are active) but turn off after a set period of time, and during that time they can choose whether or not to believe in god.


1. The Bible says all abominations and sin comes from the carnal mind - lust, greed, pride etc (which is also our natural motivating factor) that also motivates us to eat and procreate. In a world of matter, can you tell me of another motivating factor other than sense pleasure that will motivate us to eat and procreate? If you can, then I will accept you are right when you say, "certainly God could have designed" us differently, if you cannot, then I will ignore as special pleading.

Hence the drunken driver analagy. We are the pilots of our own thoughts and actions. The carnal mind is necessary, yet the carnal mind must be controlled and mastered. That is what God says.

2. You assume this life, it all the life that matters. This life it a test, and their has to be darkness so we can know what is light, their has to be evil that we may know what is good. God did not intend to create things perfectly from the start *(or He would have), yet a more perfect creation is promised.

Edited by Mercia2, 07 June 2005 - 12:30 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#217 pantrog_*

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 09:22 AM

It's also pure speculation, which is why it doesn't bother me


Speculation which is true of >99.99% of humans.


Eh?

Are you saying that speculation is common to >99.99% of humans, or that this particular speculation is common to >99.99% of humans?

Either way, I don't see the relevance.


get comfy.

Christadelphians have the truth yes ... or no?

Christadelphian total population ~50,000 - 'correct'

Human total population ~6,000,000,000 - 'not correct'

Therefore in considering my initial 'speculation' that - humans are commonly unwittingly deluded about their metaphyscial position. The Bayesian prior probability for a human 'being correct' is ~0.00000833. I might be tempted to buy a Pascalian-lottery ticket at these odds ... but the muslims and catholics are offering better deals.

A pertinent explanation after creation-in-definitive state seems relatively efficient.


<setting: glowing white hall, white smoke rolling along floor, thousands of people crowding in, suddenly a loudspeaker come on...>

"Hello and welcome to the after-life, toilets can be found at the rear, refreshments will be served shortly, exits ..... well you won't be needing them.

In 10 minutes we will be commencing eternity. A small note from our organizers here.... yes, we'd just like to clarify that although many of you remember having been Christians from the 1st to 23rd centuries AD...

{*noise of heckling from the rear*}

Sorry, and dedicated members of faithful judaic traditions until 30AD. You presently possess the definititive memories and personalities from a predicted universe we never bothered actually doing. Well moving on I think we have time for a quick hymn ..."

#218 He-man

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 03:31 PM

Pantrog:Christadelphians have the truth yes ... or no?


The truth yes ... or no
The sources of religion are the Bible, church history, and the history of religion and culture. Therefore the "Word of God" cannot be confined to the scriptural text. But the Bible is the Basic document for it contains original wittness to the events upon which Christianity is based.
Just as the word is said to be the character of the mind of man so it is not inapproiate to apply this to God, so that he may be said to reveal himself to us through his word.

Roman Catholics err in subjecting religion to the decisions of councils and popes. They assume a priori that those doctrines which have attained legal standing in the church are are in agreement with the bibical message. Far from the need for the sacrifice of revelation , Jesus would seem to be a very definate affirmation and glorification of God. That such a division was possible has been generally accepted since the fourth century.( Ioannis Calvini in Novum Testmentum Commemtari, Vol. III)
"Hence, there is no doubt there is a Being, of which nothing greater can be conceived, and it exists in both the understanding and in reality" Anselm, Proslogium pp 7-8
"The question of God's being may not proceed from a general "awareness" of an unconditional element in man, but rather can only arise from and follow faith in the acceptance of the reality of the specific God of revelation." Anselm's Fides quaerans intellectum
"The demoniac application of divine power is overcome by the establishment of an absolutely transcendent One. "Exclusive monotheism resists polytheism (Trinity) without the assertion of demoniac (Satanic) claim. This God is absolute against every other god in his self manifestation in the nation of Israel."
Hinduism the Brahma, for example, is polytheistic with the gods Shiva and Vishnu.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Acts 2:22, 23 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

John 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:44,45 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. :bow:

Edited by He-man, 18 June 2005 - 03:34 PM.


#219 mordecai_*

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 11:12 PM

The truth yes ... or no
The sources of religion are the Bible, church history, and the history of religion and culture. Therefore the "Word of God" cannot be confined to the scriptural text. But the Bible is the Basic document for it contains original wittness to the events upon which Christianity is based.
Just as the word is said to be the character of the mind of man so it is not inapproiate to apply this to God, so that he may be said to reveal himself to us through his word.


No the source of religion is man, men wrote the bible, men wrote the koran, men wrote the talmud. So the source of all religion is man, there is no religion that is purely from god or an avatar/minister of god (angel, etc). The fact is god doesn't need man to spread a saving message to mankind, when he is all powerful and all knowing, why would he go BACKWARDS from penultimate power to a weak and ignorant creature like man to spread so vitally important a message? That's the biggest contradiction in all religion, is that people believe (rather naiveley) that certain men have acted as an intermediaries between god and mankind without any kind of proof, they were too dumb to seperate fantasy from reality, plus they were all born without memories of their past history so they are easily decieved because they all lack knowledge at birth (a big flaw if you ask me, since a god would know that would leave people prone to deception constantly as people are born).

Edited by mordecai, 18 June 2005 - 11:13 PM.


#220 Adanac

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 01:02 AM

Wrong: God wrote the Bible.




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