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Inspiration Of The Bible


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#81 Deborah

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 07:40 PM

Thanks for clearing up Galatians 4, He-man :bye:

The Apostle Paul is quite clear in instructing the Galatians to use their liberty to follow God's way instead of their own fleshy ways. To suggest God constantly instils good thoughts or decisions in our heads, so we will think and act godly, make us out to be mere robots. It also takes away any responsibility from mankind (just like the theory of a Supernatural devil - "It wasn't me who sinned, the devil made me do it!"). We become righteous in God eyes by searching for Truth in His Word and by making a conscious decision to follow His Laws.

#82 Skeptic

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:51 AM

I still think inspiration of the bible comes down to circular reasoning

Yes, it is circular reasoning - the Bible is true because the Bible says so! Circular reasoning is OK - it applies to all beliefs - whatever is the highest authority in our system of belief cannot be challenged - simply because everything else must submit to it. For an athiest the highest authority might be their own reasoning. This is circular - their reasoning tells them that their reasoning is the highest authority.

So when a guy tells me that the Quran is true because the Quran says so, then that would be OK and both you and I would have to believe him, since according to your argument there is nothing worng with circular reasoning... :shades:

#83 Skeptic

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:53 AM

God very surely KNOWS how long a person will live...I don't know beyond that because the Bible doesn't tell me.

God cannot do anything which is logically impossible.

The future cannot be known, because it hasn't happened yet.

Therefore God cannot know the future.

Therefore God does not know how long anyone will live.

#84 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:58 AM

God very surely KNOWS how long a person will live...I don't know beyond that because the Bible doesn't tell me.

God cannot do anything which is logically impossible.

The future cannot be known, because it hasn't happened yet.

Therefore God cannot know the future.

Therefore God does not know how long anyone will live.

I've highlighted the false premise in this syllogism.

#85 Skeptic

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:59 AM

PFG

If human beings are "chosen" even before they act, then on what "merit" are they chosen?

What logic is there to a system that disregards the product of people's free will? Salvation becomes like winning the lottery. Not much you could do about your own salvation then, is there? Does that sound like a fair system to you?

If the "lucky ones" are all chosen beforehand, why then not just skip the part where we "go through the motions" on earth and stick the chosen ones stright into heaven? Why delay the inevitable?

#86 PFG_*

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 07:56 AM

So when a guy tells me that the Quran is true because the Quran says so, then that would be OK and both you and I would have to believe him, since according to your argument there is nothing worng with circular reasoning... :shades:

No, it doesn't mean we have to believe him, and it doesn't mean he is right, it just means we cannot argue with him. We cannot argue because if we try he merely says 'But this disagrees with the Quran' and we cannot argue any further because in his mind the Quran is the measure of everything.

Its the same with the Bible. At the end of the day, we believe God is the author of the Bible because he says so in the Bible. You can't 'prove' that God is the author of the Bible. Or can you? No. You can show some historical evidence and show that it is internally consistent etc but you can't 'prove' its God's voice we hear when we read it - but anyway we don't need to - God's voice is self-authenticating. As Spurgeon said - defending the Bible makes as much sense as defending a lion.

#87 PFG_*

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 08:28 AM

If human beings are "chosen" even before they act, then on what "merit" are they chosen?

Exactly. They are NOT chosen on merit.

What logic is there to a system that disregards the product of people's free will? Salvation becomes like winning the lottery. Not much you could do about your own salvation then, is there? Does that sound like a fair system to you?


First of all, how do you know our wills are 'free' and what does 'free' mean anyway? Why don't we just stick to the word 'will'? You see, if people are slaves to sin (which all of us were at some time) then doesn't that imply that our decision making is not 'free'? A wealthy man thinks he is free, he lives for the pleasures of this life, but in reality he is not free, he is a slave to sin, he does not think about pleasing God rather his thoughts are about pleasing himself, his thoughts are held captive by sin.

If the "lucky ones" are all chosen beforehand, why then not just skip the part where we "go through the motions" on earth and stick the chosen ones stright into heaven? Why delay the inevitable?

But the alternative is no better. Even if God had NOT chosen beforehand and only KNEW beforehand, the dilemma of your question still applies - "If God KNEW in advance who would be saved, why not just take those people straight to heaven?"

#88 PFG_*

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 08:56 AM

To suggest God constantly instils good thoughts or decisions in our heads, so we will think and act godly, make us out to be mere robots. 

If you are constantly sinning and God makes a change in your thinking so that you don't sin so much, isn't that a good thing?

It also takes away any responsibility from mankind

We are still responsible for our sin. We are not robots. I can't see a problem with God helping us to do good by giving us good thoughts or desires or attitudes.

#89 PFG_*

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 09:10 AM

Everyone has free-will to either choose to acknowledge the will of God or to ignore the will of God. What is being discussed in Galations is the people who are free from bondage and those who are not.

OK, so Galations is talking about those in bondage and those who are not. Free-will is an entirely different matter not discussed in this passage. I agree! This is what I have been trying to say all along! Therefore, we cannot derive an answer to the question 'do we have a free will?' from this passage.

#90 Deborah

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 01:31 PM

If you are constantly sinning and God makes a change in your thinking so that you don't sin so much, isn't that a good thing?

Yeh, that would be great if it were true because then I don't have to make any type of effort, or work on my character. I can sit back, relax and God will do it all for me. He will program me, just like a computer. All responsibility is taken away from me. So, if your theory is true, getting into the Kingdom will be a breeze. Hmmm .. so if it is that easy, why did Christ say the following?

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.



#91 Deborah

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 01:34 PM

We are still responsible for our sin. We are not robots.

Really? So, you don't believe in a Super-natural devil?

#92 Deborah

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:35 PM

I have to study for an exam so I can’t get on here as often as I would like. I’d just like to include these Scriptures for PFG (seeing Galatians 4 & 5 has been taken out of context), to show that God expects mankind to make a choice (he doesn’t make it for them).

Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death (two choices), blessing and cursing (two choices): therefore choose life (God wants his people to choose life - why?), that both thou and thy seed may live: (to receive eternal life) That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice …”


Proverbs 1:24-29

"Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;  But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:  I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.  Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:  For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD"


If God called and the people refused - why didn't He just put good thoughts in their head so they wouldn't refuse? If God stretched out His hand and no man regarded - why didn't God put good thoughts in their head so they would regard him?

The fact remains man has a choice. To serve God or mammon. If he chooses the former he will be rewarded, if he chooses the latter, he will be rejected.

Keep posting PFG. I’m sure others will tackle your arguments :shades:

Edited by Deborah, 03 May 2005 - 05:40 PM.


#93 PFG_*

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:15 PM

If you are constantly sinning and God makes a change in your thinking so that you don't sin so much, isn't that a good thing?

Yeh, that would be great if it were true because then I don't have to make any type of effort, or work on my character. I can sit back, relax and God will do it all for me. He will program me, just like a computer. All responsibility is taken away from me. So, if your theory is true, getting into the Kingdom will be a breeze. Hmmm .. so if it is that easy, why did Christ say the following?

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

You must work hard and live a life of obedience to God's commandments. The Bible is clear on this and I'm sure you agree. But at the same time God helps us to be obedient. He works inside us (Phil 2:12-14) transforming us to be more like Christ so that our thoughts attitudes and actions are more obedient. God doesn't leave us alone - he helps us.

I don't know why you paint the picture so stark - you seem to say either we're all alone or we are robots - whereas the Bible says we should work, and God works at the same time inside us.

#94 PFG_*

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:19 PM

We are still responsible for our sin. We are not robots.

Really? So, you don't believe in a Super-natural devil?

Yes, I think Satan exists. But I am responsible for my sinful actions. He is just an agent who might tempt me but I carry the responsibility for my decisions.

#95 PFG_*

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:36 PM

If God called and the people refused - why didn't He just put good thoughts in their head so they wouldn't refuse?  If God stretched out His hand and no man regarded - why didn't God put good thoughts in their head so they would regard him?

God could have put good thoughts in their head if he wanted to. He would be gracious to do that. Instead he left them alone, in slavery to their sinful desires.

In an exam the teacher is not permitted to help students. But life is not an exam. Its OK for God to graciously help people if they are struggling with sin. God's goal is to have a people who are transformed until they are like Christ. Helping them is OK.

#96 He-man

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 04:38 PM

PFG: Yes, I think Satan exists

God is One, and Only, for the infinitely can admit no peer. A Monotheistic God is contradicted by a Polytheistic idea that (the devil) is a god existing along with a Monotheistic God!
Theologians have the trail of the serpent over them, they are only a set of titles obtained by mechanical manipulation of synonyms; instead of "bread" we have a stone; instead of a "fish" we have a serpent. From the point of view of practical religion, the metaphysical "Monster" which they offer to our worship is an absolutely worthless invention of the scholarly mind.

He(God) can do no evil, for He is positive being’s fullness, and evil is negation. It is true He has created physical evil in places, but only as a means of wider good. Moral evil He cannot will, either as an end or a means, for that would contradict His holiness. By creating free beings He permits it only, neither His justice nor His goodness obliging Him to prevent the recipients of freedom from misusing the gift. Isaiah 45:7 and 54:16; 2 Cor 11:14; James 1:13-15

"The Varieties of Religious Experience", William James

Edited by He-man, 04 May 2005 - 04:40 PM.


#97 PFG_*

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 05:00 PM

God is One, and Only, for the infinitely can admit no peer. A Monotheistic God is contradicted by a Polytheistic idea that (the devil) is a god existing along with a Monotheistic God!

Satan cannot be God's peer because God created him. But I don't want to get into a discussion on Satan - I'm sure thats been well and truly covered on many other threads!

#98 He-man

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 06:57 PM

Isaiah 45:7 ...I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
and 54:16;
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Deut 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Jer 4:6,7 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. 7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

Jer 22:7 And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire. 8And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this great city?
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

#99 mordecai_*

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Posted 04 June 2005 - 02:35 PM

If God called and the people refused - why didn't He just put good thoughts in their head so they wouldn't refuse? If God stretched out His hand and no man regarded - why didn't God put good thoughts in their head so they would regard him?

The fact remains man has a choice. To serve God or mammon. If he chooses the former he will be rewarded, if he chooses the latter, he will be rejected.



The problem with this argument is that God himself designed the human brain and the very laws and logic it operates on. Therefore a brain that rejects god is a malfunctioning brain that god designed and was in control of. Most christadelphians are materialists, if your a materialist and determinists then you know that the pattern of matter and energy that makes you yourself is reproducible. The cells in your body can produce that pattern and that pattern will always respond in a predictable way. Therfore god intentionally created inferior patterns that would not believe in him. Lack of god belief or inability to recognize the real god is a defect in the human mind and humans have never been in control of the abilities they end up with: i.e. autism versus retardation verses epilepsy for example.

If form determines function absolutely, then god made inferior forms which still leaves him responsible for people's choices because their choices operate on malfunctioning hardware that couldn not understand, and if you cannot understand then you cannot make a choice and hence your will isn't free because the ability to understand how to determine who's god is the real creator is required for any meaningful choice. OF course there is no standard, so god created a brain that had no standards or rules that would always make people rationally come to the conclusion it was him. Therefore choice in god is not free it's random and pre-determined by the laws of nature.

Edited by mordecai, 04 June 2005 - 02:38 PM.





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