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#1 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 02:49 AM

Ok, so I am having trouble putting together why CDs believe Jesus died. Can someone please explain the purpose of Jesus' death, since it wasn't for the atonement for every man's sins.
Thank you.

#2 mordecai_*

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 03:00 AM

a) because it was prophecied
b) because its a part of gods plan
c) other reasons I have since forgotten

#3 Flappie

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 03:35 AM

Ok, so I am having trouble putting together why CDs believe Jesus died.  Can someone please explain the purpose of Jesus' death, since it wasn't for the atonement for every man's sins.
Thank you.

Of course it was for the atonement of every man's sins.

What made you think it wasn't? :unsure:

Edited by Flappie, 04 February 2005 - 03:35 AM.

"The first condition of immortality is death."
Broeders in Christus

#4 Fortigurn

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 08:45 AM

Ok, so I am having trouble putting together why CDs believe Jesus died.  Can someone please explain the purpose of Jesus' death, since it wasn't for the atonement for every man's sins.
Thank you.

As Flappie said, it was indeed for the atonement (covering), of men's sins.

Quickly and simply, minus the quotes - which should be obvious from the language I'm using:
  • Christ, out of his great love for us and his Father, submitted in perfect obedience to his Father's plan, which required Christ to be set forward to man as a representative of the weakeness of the flesh and the necessity of salvation by God.

  • As a mortal man, fallible just as we are, and prone to sin, Christ suffered the same experiences as we do, and was tempted in exactly the same we are, but did not sin as we do. This means that we can identify with him in every way, just as he identified with us in every way.

  • He is set forth to us as the mercyseat of God, the means by which we find forgiveness for sins and grace in God's sight, on the condition that we identify with Christ.

  • Identification with Christ requires an acknowledgement that all flesh is grass, and that only the Word of God abides forever - we find life in Christ when we take into ourselves the Word which he preached, and are renewed by it.

  • Identification with Christ requires putting to death our old way of thinking and way of life, crucifying the flesh, taking up our cross daily, and seeking to follow Christ, who is set forth to us as our example, that we may follow in his footsteps.

  • For this reason, we submit to full immersion baptism as part of our public declaration that we have made the committment to be buried with Christ, to put aside our 'old man' (the fleshly way of thinking and living), so that we might strive to follow Christ's example of how to live.

  • On the basis of our faith in God and Christ, confessed publicly and demonstrated by a change of mind and life, we are granted the grace of God which ensures our salvation
The foundation principle of the atonement is that it was necessary in order to change man, not to change God. That's where the Biblical description of the subject and all anti-Biblical descriptions of the subject clash.

To return to my previous example - a brasen serpent doesn't conquer death either. But identification with the brasen serpent, together with faith in God, allows access to God's conquest of death on our behalf.

So likewise identification with Christ, together with faith in God, allows access to God's conquest of death on our behalf. You'll recognise here the example which Christ himself used, of course.

#5 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 12:36 PM

Alright, I think I understand it a little better. I got confused because different cds kept saying that Jesus didn't die for atonment, and then say that he did. Now I see that the context is different. Thanks!

#6 Adanac

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 12:57 PM

It depends what you mean by atonement. Biblically the word "atonement" does not mean to appease the wrath of God by taking the punishment we deserve. The word “atonement” in the OT simply means “covering”.

#7 SwedishChef_*

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 12:05 AM

Christ, out of his great love for us and his Father, submitted in perfect obedience to his Father's plan, which required Christ to be set forward to man as a representative of the weakeness of the flesh and the necessity of salvation by God.


What would have happened if Christ decided he did not want to go through with it? Sorry but I'm curious about this. Jesus said that "I lay down my life for the sheep" implying that the God presented him with the choice. What if he decided he wouldn't do it? I think I know the answer from a theological perspective, that Jesus was predestinated as the son of God to make the choices he did...but I'm thinking in a real, practical sense here. He must have had a real choice, and he could've chosen not to.... :book:

#8 Fortigurn

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 12:08 AM

Christ, out of his great love for us and his Father, submitted in perfect obedience to his Father's plan, which required Christ to be set forward to man as a representative of the weakeness of the flesh and the necessity of salvation by God.


What would have happened if Christ decided he did not want to go through with it? Sorry but I'm curious about this. Jesus said that "I lay down my life for the sheep" implying that the God presented him with the choice. What if he decided he wouldn't do it? I think I know the answer from a theological perspective, that Jesus was predestinated as the son of God to make the choices he did...but I'm thinking in a real, practical sense here. He must have had a real choice, and he could've chosen not to.... :book:

I don't believe we can say what would have happened next. All we can say is that we know he had the choice.

#9 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 01:53 AM

Christ, out of his great love for us and his Father, submitted in perfect obedience to his Father's plan, which required Christ to be set forward to man as a representative of the weakeness of the flesh and the necessity of salvation by God.


What would have happened if Christ decided he did not want to go through with it? Sorry but I'm curious about this. Jesus said that "I lay down my life for the sheep" implying that the God presented him with the choice. What if he decided he wouldn't do it? I think I know the answer from a theological perspective, that Jesus was predestinated as the son of God to make the choices he did...but I'm thinking in a real, practical sense here. He must have had a real choice, and he could've chosen not to.... :book:

Well, then all of us gentiles would be in trouble, and Judaism would still be the "true" religion.

It depends what you mean by atonement. Biblically the word "atonement" does not mean to appease the wrath of God by taking the punishment we deserve. The word “atonement” in the OT simply means “covering”.

Isn't that just saying the same thing though? So Jesus died to cover our sins, why? To appease the wrath of God by taking the punishment we deserve, since Jesus was perfect and did not deserve to be punished. Man, I thought I understood, but now I can't remember why I thought that.

#10 Adanac

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 10:52 AM

It depends what you mean by atonement. Biblically the word "atonement" does not mean to appease the wrath of God by taking the punishment we deserve. The word “atonement” in the OT simply means “covering”.

Isn't that just saying the same thing though? So Jesus died to cover our sins, why? To appease the wrath of God by taking the punishment we deserve, since Jesus was perfect and did not deserve to be punished.

It's not the same at all. The Bible does not say that Jesus was punished. It does say that the sins of the world put him to death, but that was the world's fault, not God's. God would have been unrighteous to have his son killed in our place as a substitute. What Jesus did in dying was not to take punishment upon himself but to exemplify the righteousness of God, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and must be subdued. His total repudiation of the flesh is seen in him submitting to the cross and far from being a substitute his dying for all means that all in him are dead also (2 Corinthians 5:14). We must associate with him by dying with him in baptism, and rising with him too (Romans 6:3-5). By dying with him we put on Christ (Galatians 3:27) as a robe and our faith in his sacrificial work is counted to us as righteousness.

#11 Adanac

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 10:56 AM

The problem mankind faces is death. We can have our sins forgiven but we still die. Therefore it had to take one, who was perfectly sinless, to conquer death, which is the wages of sin.

It works like this: Jesus was a mortal member of Adam's race. He therefore was subject to death (he did not have a free life) and died. But he was sinless and the grave could not hold him to God loosed him from death and death was conquered by his sacrifice. A new covenant is established based on that and when we enter into that covenant we enter into a life where sin and death have been conquered.

#12 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 11:46 AM

I am confused about this phrase:

and the grave could not hold him to God loosed him from death



#13 Adanac

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 12:06 PM

Sorry, it should be so God loosed him from death.

#14 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 05:26 PM

Thanks for the clearification.
If you don't believe that sin cannot be inherited, then how can Jesus pay the wages for all of our sins? In other words, how can someone else pay for what we have done when our sins cannot be passed on to someone else?

#15 Adanac

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 05:34 PM

Who said Jesus paid the wages for our sins? The Bible doesn't say Jesus paid the wages for our sins. The Bible says we are forgiven for our sins.

#16 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 05:53 PM

What did Jesus' death have to do with God forgiving our sins?

#17 Kremlin

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 08:46 PM

There are two fundamental principles of God's Character that he reveals, they are a) His Mercy, and b) His Righteousness.

When man sins, God would love to show him mercy and forgive him, but his righteousness (which demands perfection, as that is who he is) cannot allow him to count us righteous when we've sinned, which is what forgiveness involves. Forgiveness involves "removing the sin from us as far as east is from west", to use a biblical expression of what God does, and that means that we are counted righteous.

God can't do this, because his righteousness dictates that sin leads to death, and thus everyone is worthy of death. The human flesh that we have is only worthy of death.

Thus before Jesus Christ came, all that the Law could do was show the ugliness of mankind's sins to them, and they could recognise that they were sinners, and that God was righteous. Thus when they died they were 100% reconciled to God - but they were still dead. God could not give them life because they could not be counted righteous.

However, behind the types of the Law existed a greater principle demonstrated in Jesus Christ, that of the man who, despite having the same flesh as us that was worthy only to die, did no sin, and thus was righteous. God's righteousness dictated that he had to be raised from the dead, because he didn't sin. It is only by recognising that this greater principle existed behind the types and shadows of the offerings under the law, and recognising God's Righteousness behind it (both in putting the flesh to death, but also in raising a sinless man) that they could be forgiven by God.

God has said that those that identify themselves with his Son will be reconciled to him, and can be forgiven, not by their own righteousness, but rather the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is 'imputed' to them when they believe on him, just as Abraham was counted righteous when he believed God as well, and thus we can be reconciled to God without dying :)
God is able to forgive us which also upholds the other side of his Character, that of his overwhelming mercy and desire to show it to mankind - but only on his terms.

So you see, the whole of the atonement and the principles behind it are bound up in the very character of God. Yes, God is merciful, but he is also righteous, and he cannot give up his righteousness even to show mercy, and so in his wisdom he has provided another way where a representative of our race has accomplished what he wanted us to do in the first place, and because Jesus Christ upheld God's Righteousness throughout his life, he is the only one that has obtained redemption for himself. For the rest of us, God forgives if we recognise his righteousness in all that he did, and identify with what Jesus Christ has done.

#18 Fortigurn

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 10:00 PM

What did Jesus' death have to do with God forgiving our sins?

Please read the post I provided for you. The key to the atonement is that it is an act which is intended to change our attitude towards God, not God's attitude towards us.

#19 R2D2

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Posted 05 February 2005 - 10:00 PM

What did Jesus' death have to do with God forgiving our sins?

He became our representative.

We are able to have our sins forgiven if we identify ourselves with his death (by being baptised) and with his ressurection (coming out of the water again).

We also identify with his death and ressurection after our baptism too by renewing our minds and sacrificing our lives to God and to our fellow believers.

When we do this honestly and sincerely we will have our sins forgiven.

Its very symbollic but the symbology when applied correctly leads to a new life in practical terms.

R2D2

#20 scitsofreaky_*

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Posted 06 February 2005 - 12:25 AM

Thank you for the different responses. Basically, it sounds like it is all very symbolic (the belief, not what Jesus did).
But, Kremlin, why must we also recognize what Jesus did if we already know how righteous and merciful God is, it seems that this recognition is the most important aspect; and Jesus' life was an example to show the righteousness of God.




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