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Who Made God?


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#21 InChristAlways

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:06 AM

So there exists this Being, who had no say in his own existence and cannot tell you why he exists, because since he wasn't created, he exists without purpose. This would have seemed sad,

Hi Skeptic. One thing I know that is Biblical. There also existed a Temple of God in Jerusalem at one time and it suddenly "disappeared".
Was that by "chance" or Divine? Why not just read the Bible for enjoyment and live in Peace and Love with others and worry about whether God exists or not after you die. Either the Bible is Divine or not but all I know is, there is a a nice pretty "Gold Dome" in a once Great City that is missing one of its most Sacred Landmarks.
Peace.

Matt 23:38 "See! Your house is left to you a Wilderness; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

Revelation 18:18 "and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What [is] like this Great City?'

#22 jamiezz_*

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:10 AM

This quote by Alethia is from the Agnostic Ethics thread:

If we are here by random chance, then it is axiomatic that life has no purpose or meaning. It simply is. Purpose implies an intelligence behind it. Meaning implies that there is something greater than life to which it conveys meaning. If it is random chance, then it has neither.

*snip*


This, as well as the snipped part following it, indeed applies to the agnostic outlook on human beings. The fact is, if we take God out of the equation, then we are left with these unanswered questions. (This is what puts many people off, because people hate not having the answers to questions. )

However, if we bring God into the equation, we are just 'bumping' all the questions that would have pertained to human beings, one level upwards.

For instance:

It has been argued that God just is. He wasn't designed or created.

If God wasn't designed, then surely he has no purpose. (The word "purpose" implies design, accoridng to the teleological argument). If he has no purpose, he has no meaning. If he has no meaning, why logically do we have to honour him? Do we argue that we need to obey him ad baculum?

Why would God bother to exist at all? Well, God ostensibly cannot "bother to exist"; God finds himself existing, without any purpose, the ultimate axiom.

So there exists this Being, who had no say in his own existence and cannot tell you why he exists, because since he wasn't created, he exists without purpose. This would have seemed sad, except that this purposeless being just happens to be the most powerful being in existence. So he can console himself for not knowing what his purpose is, by finding purpose in creating things. (Hey, this sounds a lot like the agnostic, making his own purpose in the absense of an objective standard!)

Is it objectively more logical to believe in this being, that exists who-knows-why, than to believe the universe just sprang into existence? I see very little difference.

Any thoughts?


Hi are you familiar with platonic concepts?

God existed in the beginning in a continum consisting of darkness and waters. He was always there. Darkness and waters too will always exist.... but the form can be manipulated by God - not destroyed of created - like a potter and clay.

I suspect that God might have been lonely or something - hence wanted to create images of himself to dominate over the other aspects of this eternal continum. Honestly I don't know though.

Edited by jamiezz, 03 February 2006 - 11:12 AM.


#23 Evangelion

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:14 AM

I just spent about an hour typing a post, only to lose it as I hit a wrong button. :cry2:


:oops:

Done that plenty of times myself; I know how frustrating it can be! :eek:

:console:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#24 He-man

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 03:24 PM

Hi SoaringEagle

Nice name that.

Is it possible that understanding certain things about God are impossible?


I take it that is a rhetorical question. In fact, spoken like a true agnostic, I think.

You see, if you believe in God, you can only shake your head in wonder at the fact that non-believers could say things like "the universe just is". I mean, surely it is obvious: if the universe exists, then something must have made it, viz God.

However, you have to still admit then that the fact that God exists, is an even bigger mystery. In order to address the mystery, you have to postulate theories like "God exists out of time". That statement cannot be Biblically substantiated, nor can a basic definition be conceived as to what is meant by "exists out of time".

What I want to know is: how is saying "the universe exists uncaused" different from saying "God exists uncaused"? Any thoughts?

Job 15:8 Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
13 That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?

Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?

Job 27:8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?
11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
16 With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

Job 35:14 Although thou sayest thou shalt not see him, yet judgment is before him; therefore trust thou in him.
Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Job 30:23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

Ps 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Ps 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Mt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

#25 tsunade sama_*

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 03:09 PM

It's so easy to ask all these questions about God and why did he bother creating the universe, and more importantly, us. Its easy to think that he was lonely or perhaps bored in his eternal existance and decided to create man so he could be entertained. Im sorry to offend anyone but this is such an immature view of God and attributes him with the understanding we have whilst ignoring the fact that he created us. We must also remember that God made his creation perfect, and yes, he did create us with free will so we would choose to serve him. But he so wanted us to dwell in perfection and to gloriously happy in his company. He created everything so that it would be perfect for man and he hates the way the world is now. What Im trying to say is that God loves us so much that He wants us to have everything we want and to live in such happiness, that to imply he created us selfishly to satisfy his own needs is so sad. He had the angels with him so no-one could say he created man because he was lonely. God clearly cant wait for the day when he will dwell with those who want serve him forever, as I think Rev 22v3,4 show:

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself shall be with them and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

I think that really shows God's true desire for those who love him- to live in unimaginable happiness. And to desire to follow God is not like being a servant in the human sense of the word, for to be God's servant is to know happiness and to follow Christ's commands is to know that even if they seem difficult at the time, looking back on situations, they have protected us if we have followed them. Those who think it is weak to follow the commands of a man who lived 2000 years ago clearly do not understand that those commands were given for our benefit and to protect us from evil. There is no joy like that of feeling close to God, but I imagine there is nothing quite as ridiculous to one who doesn't believe in him.

x Tsunade

#26 SoaringEagle_*

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:18 PM

I have thought about the question "who made God" for sometime now and it dawned on me that the idea that God has always existed in an infinite way, isn't as far-fetched, irrational, or mysterious as some may think. I'd like to make a comparison. Think of numbers. Is it true, that there is no first number, nor is there a last number? I don't think there is. What is the lowest number, and what is the highest?

15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
<----------------------- ------------------------>

So if this is true with numbers, why can it not be true with God? If numbers can have no beginning or an end, then why couldn't God? If my understanding is correct, then we can actually see something natural such as numbers where this is the case. With that in mind, it may just be that this example with numbers is a dim reflection of the Great "I AM".

P.S. I have never heard anyone else come up with this idea, so I did not borrow this from anyone. There is nothing new under the some, and I must say I realize that!

Edited by SoaringEagle, 25 September 2006 - 09:21 PM.


#27 hope_*

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Posted 26 September 2006 - 11:49 PM

If God had no meaning, it would be pointless to honour him and presumably he wouldn't mind whether we did or not. However if God does exist and if we exist because he created us, then God is clearly taking actions and therefore does have a purpose. (Unless his actions are random. But consider ecosystems, laws of physics, dna, etc. and they clearly are not - why bother with creating so much intricate interconnectedness if he's just randomly creating "things" with no point?)

Does that mean he must have been created or designed by another force? No - I think it is a mistake to assume that if God was not created, then he must not have a design and therefore has no purpose. God must have a design, be a design, whatever. When I look at anything that exists I see evidence of order and design - and therefore purpose. Personally I have to conclude that precisely because there is so much design, there must be a purpose and therefore a creator. If this creator, God, exists, and by definition nothing else designed God, then it seems God might have designed himself or that he is design and order. Maybe design and order - even purpose iteslf - are manifestations of God. Can a purpose exist of itself? What if purpose exists because God exists, rather than God existing for a purpose... Hmm. God says that he is love. What if this is the ultimate purpose - the design, the reason for the design as well as the designer himself... Anyway, I think I'm just rambling but you did ask for any thoughts :shades:

#28 John the Bearded_*

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Posted 04 October 2006 - 04:02 AM

The point about the Universe is that we know that it is growing older. We can also see that it had a beginning (this is what the latest Nobel Prize for Astronomy was about). Given the law of cause and effect, this leaves one with the question of what caused the first event in the Universe? Not answering this question, which is at the root of a large portion of "Rationalist" cosmology is rather unsatisfactory.

When it comes to God, we know that God does not grow old. There is thus no reason why God cannot exist for ever. The question about what existed before God does not therefore arise.

Every theory that exists must, in the end, come to some referent which existed before everything else, and was not therefore caused by anything, what Aristotle called a "First Cause". Enlightenment "Rationalists" are trying to make this part of the Universe, but have no real solution to the problem of what the "First Cause" was. If one accepts the existence of God, then one has a "First Cause" which is different from the universe and thus can have existed from everlasting. To try to invent a "First Cause" which comes before God doesn't solve anything; sooner or later one has to propose an entity which existed without having to be caused, or which existed from infinity. The simplest answer is that this ultimate "First Cause" is God.

Yours

John the Bearded

#29 InChristAlways

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 11:14 AM

I have thought about the question "who made God" for sometime now and it dawned on me that the idea that God has always existed in an infinite way, isn't as far-fetched, irrational, or mysterious as some may think. I'd like to make a comparison. Think of numbers. Is it true, that there is no first number, nor is there a last number? I don't think there is. What is the lowest number, and what is the highest?

15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
<----------------------- ------------------------>

So if this is true with numbers, why can it not be true with God? If numbers can have no beginning or an end, then why couldn't God? If my understanding is correct, then we can actually see something natural such as numbers where this is the case. With that in mind, it may just be that this example with numbers is a dim reflection of the Great "I AM".

P.S. I have never heard anyone else come up with this idea, so I did not borrow this from anyone. There is nothing new under the some, and I must say I realize that!

That is an interesting observation. If Jesus is the First and the Last, do we put the First as a positive 1 or start him as the first negative number which has no real beginning number as does the last number which has no end?. Interesting post. :book:

Reve 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

#30 hope_*

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Posted 13 November 2006 - 04:12 PM

Reve 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 "I [am] He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.



I recently read an interesting idea about "the first and the last" in Revelation. The Hebrew word for truth, emet, consists of the first, middle and final letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Because of this special "completeness" of the word and because it was one of the aspects of His character revealed to Moses when he received the Commandments, Emet was sometimes used as a name of God, like The Truth. It was a way of indicating His perfect completeness and sufficiency. So the alpha and omega, first and the last, or the beginning and the end in Revelation may be referring back to that Jewish tradition.




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