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Is a Jealous God a good God?


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#61 The Budster

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:54 PM

To get away from cats, did you know that 99% of the population has an IQ between 61 and 139? If so, do you have any idea what it's like for someone with an IQ around 145 to have a conversation with someone with an IQ of 100, or 60? "Stimulating" is not the word for it. It may be very enjoyable, but it is not intellectually stimulating. Any enjoyment is going to come from somewhere other than the intellectual front.

Again, I have no idea what God's IQ is. I'd hazard a guess that it's higher than 145, though. Our poor little Mensa member, impressed as he may be with himself, is not going to be providing God with any intellectual stimulation. God may take pleasure in him, but it won't be for that.

#62 Mercia2

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:01 PM

If God ever decided to have a conversation with me, or a chess game, he would know what I was going to say next, or what my next move is. There's really no scope here for God to be surprised, and intellectual stimulation depends vitally on surprise. When we already know what the other person is going to say, we're unspeakably bored.
.... Nothing I read suggests that He finds our conversation scintillating

I thoroughly expect to lose chess to God, yes. I do not think I can engage Him in "scintillating conversation" either, but in order to have association and true kin their has to be more than an animal like non communicative relationship or its not even the same true love that humans experience with each other.

Also, the other thing that is not clearly defined in this conversation is the word "God", the "invisible God" of which Jesus was a reflection is undefined. If it turns out to be just referring to the whole host of heaven/angels manifesting the Divine Image then angels are like men, or are men, former men, not sure exactly but they are just wise powerful immortal men.

Also, no one knows what we are going to be doing for eternity, praising God non stop of lying next to a pond eating an apple, both I doubt. Something else, something huge is going on. Some sort of self replication for a reason.

Edited by Mercia2, 14 March 2012 - 06:44 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#63 Mercia2

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:04 PM

ministering angels and former Christians raised to be teachers to those who will be saved, we do not all sleep, I know as mine is I am sure of it.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#64 Mercia2

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:10 PM

Basically its as simple as this. Jesus is the Divine Image/the reflection of God, to adore and love God we adore and love His Divine Image, or His reflection, Lord Jesus. So God wants us to love Him through a man, Jesus, in whom manifested God. Thats the plan, thats the idea. Anything else is idolatry. If you go off and make your own God from bits of the OT probably read out of context thats idolatry. Anything but Jesus is idolatry, because He alone is the Divine refection. This association give is of a child and His father. Why make something else? Nowhere in the Bible does it liken those with the mind of Christ like cats to God? So lets just stick with the corrospondances the Bibles makes.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#65 Ken Gilmore

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:54 AM

On the whole, I think it's a compliment to say that our intellect is to God's intellect as a cat's intellect is to a man's intellect. The cat can at least surprise us, which is something we can never do for God.

Of course, if you believe in open theism, God wouldn't be able to see the future as it remains to be determined. Of course, if God controls all the variables and can model us with sufficient precision to be able to have His own version of psychohistory, He'd be able to predict the future by inventing it. There's scope for surprising God, but it would be in the margins. Pretty small ones admittedly.

Edited by Ken Gilmore, 14 March 2012 - 02:01 AM.

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” - Galileo Galilei

#66 LivingInParadise

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:37 AM

What's wrong with God owning us? What's wrong with God having the right to kill and save? I kill weeds in my garden. God has every right to kill sinners. It's the height of absurdity to suggest that we weak mortals have higher morals than God. If God's morality is different to ours we should change - not God.

#67 Ken Gilmore

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:16 AM

What's wrong with God owning us? What's wrong with God having the right to kill and save? I kill weeds in my garden. God has every right to kill sinners. It's the height of absurdity to suggest that we weak mortals have higher morals than God. If God's morality is different to ours we should change - not God.

The fact that religious and philosophical systems completely outside of the Abrahamic faiths have an ethical system not dissimilar to the Golden Rule suggests strongly that morality exists independent of God. I don't hold to Divine Command Theory one little bit. Things are good not because God commands them. Rather, God commands things because even He knows they are good. The idea that God's morality is different to ours is one that I regard as quite disturbing. Genocide is still genocide no matter who does it. (I am not equating Divine punishment of sinners with genocide, just in case you were about to infer that equation.)

I don't believe we have higher morals than God, but conversely God's morality is not arbitrary, but objective, and that is because even He realises things some things are Plain Out Wrong. When God appeared before Moses and declared His glory (Ex 34:6-7)

The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

what comes out clearly is that in response to Moses' request to see the Glory of God, what the Creator does is show that He regards mercy, patience and justice as integral to His character. These are traits that humans no matter what religion (or lack of it) regard as bedrock morality. I'll put my neck out and say that any Deity whose morality deviated from these principles would not be worth worshipping, which is why I regard Divine Command Theory with horror. I don't regard the fact that morality is independent of God as detracting from His omnipotence at all. Rather, I see it as implies in the statement that God cannot lie - there are some things that God cannot do, and one of them is deviate from absolute standards of morality.

This does not mean that God does not have the right to administer divine justice to unrepentant sinners - that would mean he would be deviating from His commitment to justice. What it does mean though is that we should not expect God to endorse genocide or any act that we regard as morally repugnant.

I suspect we agree on this - the reason I'm taking the time to talk about Divine Command Theory again is the suggestion that God's morality could be different from ours. What we know to be right (even when we fail to adhere to it, which is depressingly often) is what God regards as morally right.
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” - Galileo Galilei

#68 The Budster

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:49 AM

Joshua must be a real problem for you. If God really commanded it, then some sort of justification is necessary, or else the conclusion would be that God did wrong.

On the other hand, I can't begin to imagine how you justify meat eating. I'm not an IQist, so I don't buy the argument that it's OK because they're stupid. If that were the standard, we could also eat babies and very stupid people.

#69 The Budster

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:51 AM

Marcia, what do you mean "non-communicative"? Humans can talk. They just don't have anything to say that's intellectually stimulating. Imagine yourself surrounded by three year olds for 1,000 years, if you like.

#70 Mercia2

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:05 AM

Marcia, what do you mean "non-communicative"? Humans can talk. They just don't have anything to say that's intellectually stimulating. Imagine yourself surrounded by three year olds for 1,000 years, if you like.

Its Mercia, not Marcia.
The Holy angels take a great interest in what men write about God, I do not know about intellectually stimulating but I know they read what we write. God is interested in how well we are doing, if not intellectually stimulated by what we are doing.

The point is, show humility, let us show ourselves humble before God, lets call the wisdom of this world foolishness to God etc etc, but lets not liken it to how a human talks to a cat, or make up our own analogies (that are not in the Bible), like your cat idea.

Infact, why does not someone list all the animals God calls the unreformed in the Bible and then all the comparisons that are made by God/the Bible for believers, or rather for those who are wise and understand, as the book of Daniel says, like "stars forever and ever", not cats. Also, if science gives absolute answers and Einstein was say 90% correct, then the comparison atleast in the context of understanding physics is clearly not as stark as the difference between a human and a cat. A cat cannot understand the first thing about physics.

Where you are former Muslim or something? Only this is just the sort of division they create in mind between man and God?

Edited by Mercia2, 14 March 2012 - 08:18 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#71 Mercia2

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:11 AM

Marcia, what do you mean "non-communicative"? Humans can talk. They just don't have anything to say that's intellectually stimulating. Imagine yourself surrounded by three year olds for 1,000 years, if you like.

Now you have gone from cats to 3 year old humans. So why would God want to surround himself with 3 year olds for eternity?

We are sons of God not the pets of God.

What's wrong with God having the right to kill and save? I kill weeds in my garden. God has every right to kill sinners. It's the height of absurdity to suggest that we weak mortals have higher morals than God. If God's morality is different to ours we should change - not God.


I think their is a danger in getting to the place in our mind where we see sinners as weeds, we are to have have compassion for sinners and try and lead them to the truth, not just wait for God to pluck them as weeds, no? Apart from that who was saying it was not Gods right to do all those things you listed? Not me, but tell me can you love or feel compassion for a weed? That is just using religion to dehumanise others. Another reason why bad theology makes many Christians WORSE than most atheists.

Edited by Mercia2, 14 March 2012 - 10:19 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#72 The Budster

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:10 AM

Where you are former Muslim or something? Only this is just the sort of division they create in mind between man and God?

No, I'm just elitist.

I've consistently talked about INTELLECT ONLY, and it seems like that part of it is not coming through to you. Ken spoke of sentience as a reason that destroying humans is bad, while destroying cows is not bad. I remarked that by the standards of someone with an IQ of 145, someone with an IQ of 55 is no more sentient than an animal. This is something that must be experienced to be truly appreciated.

If you've experienced it, it should be obvious that a surprisingly small difference in intelligence--on the order of 30 IQ points, say--is enough to create an unbridgeable gulf. People on one side of the gulf are not only incapable of thinking the thoughts that people on the other side can; they're incapable even of imagining in their dreams what those thoughts might be like. As a result, they're probably unaware that the gulf even exists. To folks on the other side, however, it can be like belonging to a different species entirely. You're not just speaking a foreign language when you communicate across the gulf: you're forced to do like the cowboys in a racist movie from the 1950s. "You like 'em fire water? Me bring heap plenty fire water! You bring 'em buffalo hide!"

Now I don't know what I look like to a genius. Part of not being one is that I can't see the world as he sees it. But based upon considerations as above, I know he sees a different world that I can't see. So merely knowing that God is "awfully awfully smart" is enough to know that His idea of an intellectual conversation is something I can't even envision in my dreams. Whatever pleasure He gets out of me, an intellectual conversation is not one of them.

#73 The Budster

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:20 AM

So back to Ken's question. I've seen my cat exhibit what looks like love, hate, fear, and even conscience. In its own way it wants to live, and doesn't want to die. Why is that not enough to make it wrong for me to decide whether it lives or dies? Who says its own brand of self-awareness isn't enough to make it deserving of life?

It seems remarkably self-serving, not to mention circular, to suggest that human sentience is the threshold at which murder becomes wrong. An alien race with an average IQ of 300 (on human IQ tests) would probably call us charming little animals with digital watches. They might well reason precisely as Ken does, but decide that we're below the threshold of intelligence that entitles us to our own lives. They'd probably keep us as pets, or perhaps servants. They would probably call us "self-aware, but not sentient," or perhaps, "sentient, but not intelligent." Of course yet another alien race, with an average IQ of 500 on human IQ tests, would probably call THEM charming little animals, and call us insects with digital watches...

Now I've no clue, nor do I care to guess, as to what God's IQ is. Nor, for that matter, do I claim that IQ really means anything. NOR, for that matter, do I claim that there's no upper limit to intelligence. For all I know, there's an upper limit to how intelligent any being can be, and the "300 IQ aliens" might be possible but the "500 IQ aliens" impossible.

None of that really affects my basic point. Namely, that Ken's attempt to use intelligence as a standard with which to bootstrap a prohibition against murder that at the same time justifies hamburgers, suffers from the defect that this threshold he posits is entirely arbitrary.

#74 Mercia2

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:11 AM

I've consistently talked about INTELLECT ONLY, and it seems like that part of it is not coming through to you.

Ok, well I do not agree with you on that level either. Since when do you say to a cat or even a 3 year old child, "Come now, let us reason together,".

A bus full of 12 year old children crashed today, 22 died. I will want a very good explanation for this before I become 'like an angel' or you can count me out, i'm not interested.

A cat anology or even a 3 year old child anaology will not do.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#75 Mercia2

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:13 AM

an IQ of 145

I know some blind people with little common sense and yet high IQ.

Edited by Mercia2, 14 March 2012 - 10:16 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#76 Richard

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:45 AM

I suspect we agree on this - the reason I'm taking the time to talk about Divine Command Theory again is the suggestion that God's morality could be different from ours. What we know to be right (even when we fail to adhere to it, which is depressingly often) is what God regards as morally right.


Of course God's morality can be different from ours (if we take 'ours' as society). You look at what society calls good and it totally contradicts what God has said in his word. I am not sure what Divine Command Theory is - do you mean we just obey God because he said it? In a sense we do, but not blindly. We obey God because we know he's right, and he has given us abundant evidence that he is right, so when there are things that seem right (Proverbs 14:12) we don't go that route and we choose God's way instead.

#77 Mercia2

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:51 AM

In a sense we do, but not blindly. We obey God because we know he's right

We trust He is right, but what we think we know by God judging by some of the ideas I read on here (i.e theology) leads me to conclude what we think we know about God, makes God something other than what has been revealed by the Divine Image, the reflection of God, Lord Jesus - and that is idolatry.

If you all keep trying to make an image of God by only taking Christ into part of the equation by your ever evolving understanding of the OT then you make a God that changes as your theology changes, which is quite frequently. So lets just stick with Jesus and lets filter how we see God through the filter of Jesus and the NT and quit the idolatry.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#78 The Budster

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:35 PM

Not sure I can help you, Mercia. I reason with kids and stupid people all the time. I assure you it's a one-way process, in which I try to find the best way to crowbar information into their heads.

Do you actually think God is requesting a mutual exchange of ideas, in which He has a few good points and you have a few good points? Is that what you think?

#79 Mercia2

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:39 PM

Do you actually think God is requesting a mutual exchange of ideas, in which He has a few good points and you have a few good points? Is that what you think?

Budster, you are funny. I am sure I have said this before, but no I do not expect to make a few good points and then God makes a few good points, but I do believe He has made us to be able to understand, not everything their is to understand, but what we need to understand - such as for example, the problem of suffering. That is all I am saying.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#80 The Budster

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:47 PM

Of course that's true. Nobody said any different.




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