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The 'Atonement'


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#1 daysha

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 03:07 AM

so that I can correctly understand the whole subject of the 'Atonement'.

Are the 'answers' supplied in this linkcorrect or is the writer a bit awry of the truth?
The writer reads as though he believes that our literal flesh is unclean and that Adam & Eve's bodies physically changed at the "Fall" and that we therefore inherit that sinful sinfulness in our flesh too.

I'd like to know of a good book or article that explains it. You never know I may be obliged to teach the 'Truth' to an 'interested friend' one day. But I wouldn't know what to teach them as regards the whole atonement subject.
Do all to the glory of God. Read His word prayerfully, think about it, meditate upon it and do.

#2 Ken Gilmore

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 05:06 AM

so that I can correctly understand the whole subject of the 'Atonement'.

Are the 'answers' supplied in this linkcorrect or is the writer a bit awry of the truth?
The writer reads as though he believes that our literal flesh is unclean and that Adam & Eve's bodies physically changed at the "Fall" and that we therefore inherit that sinful sinfulness in our flesh too.

I'd like to know of a good book or article that explains it. You never know I may be obliged to teach the 'Truth' to an 'interested friend' one day. But I wouldn't know what to teach them as regards the whole atonement subject.

Hmm. Let's just say that the site is not representative of mainstream Christadelphian teaching on the atonement. The Testimony Magazine had a special issue on the atonement which you may find useful.
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” - Galileo Galilei

#3 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 September 2011 - 07:06 AM

Are the 'answers' supplied in this linkcorrect or is the writer a bit awry of the truth?


The writer is drastically astray from the truth, and has wavered all over the place

I'd like to know of a good book or article that explains it. You never know I may be obliged to teach the 'Truth' to an 'interested friend' one day. But I wouldn't know what to teach them as regards the whole atonement subject.


Read them Mathew 18:23-35.

#4 Mercia2

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 03:23 AM

The writer reads as though he believes that our literal flesh is unclean and that Adam & Eve's bodies physically changed at the "Fall" and that we therefore inherit that sinful sinfulness in our flesh too.

The writer is one of those immature Christians who still waver between literalism (usually nonsense) and how these things are intended to be symbolically understood and applied to us all, not just a point in history. When that is first clear in his mind then and only then should I preach about such things. His journey in understanding is far from over.

People should read what the Christadelphian founders wrote about the events in Genesis 1-3, because while they present them in a slightly different way than I would we are essentially saying the same thing. For years I was accusing Christadelphians of woefully failing to understand Gen 1-3 but it turned out this was only modern Christadelphians, not the actual founders, when several years ago some original writings of your founder emerged.

I'd like to know of a good book or article that explains it. You never know I may be obliged to teach the 'Truth' to an 'interested friend' one day. But I wouldn't know what to teach them as regards the whole atonement subject.


Read them Mathew 18:23-35.

The measure ye mete etc, perfect justice, exposes all hypocrisy.

...was brought to him
At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged

So I forgive you all.

Edited by Mercia2, 03 September 2011 - 04:00 PM.
Combined two posts

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#5 daysha

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 07:40 PM

Which of the following writers & articles express in your view a correct understanding of the Atonement? I'd be happy for you to just write down the number/s that correspond to the correct ones.

1. Bro Matthew Trowell
2. Bro Chris Maddocks
3. Bro Don Styles
4. Bre Ghent and Abel of CSSS
5. Bro Peter Watkins
6. Bro John Launchbury
7. The ‘Antipas’ group/fellowship
8. Bro Jim Cowie
9. Bro John Martin
10. Bro Richie Morgan (pretty sure he has the right view)
11. Bro Robert Roberts as in ‘The Blood of Christ’
12. Bro GVG (Growcott?)
13. Bro John Knowles
14. Bro George Booker
15. Bro John Nichols in a Testimony article
16. Bro M A Pilbeam of former Bexley eccl.
17. Bro Frank Jannaway
18. The Cumberland/Enfield statement on the Atonement (John Ullman’s ecclesia?)
19. The Tidings Mag editorial (USA) Feb 2000
20. The Origin of Sin article in BTDF by Librarian
21. Tidings article"One Mediator Between God and Men" (Editorial Nov 2005 `http://www.tidings.org/editorials/editor200511.htm
22. A Oosthuizen

I have copies of their writings re; the Atonement, and want to sort them into their correct order of truth or error.

Edited by daysha, 09 September 2011 - 07:42 PM.

Do all to the glory of God. Read His word prayerfully, think about it, meditate upon it and do.

#6 Evangelion

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 09:50 PM

18. The Cumberland/Enfield statement on the Atonement (John Ullman’s ecclesia?)


No. Enfield and Cumberland are South Australian ecclesias. John Ullman lived in Perth, Western Australia. He attended Perth Central.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#7 Fortigurn

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 10:30 PM

2. Bro Chris Maddocks
7. The ‘Antipas’ group/fellowship
12. Bro GVG (Growcott?)


Don't even bother reading these.

#8 daysha

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 11:43 PM

Thanks.
Anyone else recommend ones to avoid?
Do all to the glory of God. Read His word prayerfully, think about it, meditate upon it and do.

#9 Fortigurn

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 03:17 AM

Thanks.
Anyone else recommend ones to avoid?


Pretty much anything written by a Logos editor, and I wouldn't bother with Jannaway either.

Edited by Fortigurn, 10 September 2011 - 03:18 AM.


#10 Mercia2

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 02:14 PM

10. Bro Richie Morgan (pretty sure he has the right view)

Is that Richie from the other board?
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#11 Evangelion

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:04 PM

Yes.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#12 daysha

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Posted 11 September 2011 - 10:21 PM

Thanks for your responses. :)
Are all the others on my list on the right track then as far as the Atonement goes?
Do all to the glory of God. Read His word prayerfully, think about it, meditate upon it and do.

#13 Fortigurn

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 02:45 AM

daysha, the true Biblical interpretation of the atonement is participation. This has a lengthy history in our community; I have found it declared explicitly by brother Roberts as early as 1870. It is also recognized by modern scholarship as the true understanding. I have attached a seven page document on mainstream Christadelphian interpretations of the atonement, which you should find of use.

Attached Files


Edited by Fortigurn, 12 September 2011 - 02:45 AM.


#14 Fortigurn

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 02:48 AM

I would recommend virtually anything Islip Collyer wrote on the atonement.

#15 daysha

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 07:39 PM

Awesome, :thank: Fort.
Do all to the glory of God. Read His word prayerfully, think about it, meditate upon it and do.

#16 Evangelion

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 07:55 PM

The first and most important thing to know about the atonement is that it's a lot simpler than people claim.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#17 Mercia2

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 02:49 AM

The first and most important thing to know about the atonement is that it's a lot simpler than people claim.

Absolutely
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#18 Mercia2

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 03:05 PM

I would recommend virtually anything Islip Collyer wrote on the atonement.

Only PDF?
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#19 Jon

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 02:36 AM

I've read tons on the atonement but I'd still say Uncle Bob's 'Blood of Christ' is the clearest.

#20 Fortigurn

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 02:49 AM

I've read tons on the atonement but I'd still say Uncle Bob's 'Blood of Christ' is the clearest.


I'm sorry I can't say the same. It's not as clear as the single sentence definition he gave in 1870 which was brilliant, and looks too much like he's carefully ducking and weaving to navigate his way through a minefield of heresies.




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