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Arguments the Christian apologist should avoid


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#41 Huldah

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 10:09 PM

Too many human beings have tried to tell me with their human words that I can't simply understand what the Bible says God is saying, without taking on board their supernatural take on how to understand the Bible. So they want me to go along with their words before I go along with the God's words. Hmm...

Well I do not agree with that and I do think some Christadelphians are inspired by the Holy Spirit at times just from praying for guidance when studying the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit makes it far easier to see the corrospondances and allegories but not that it is not possible to see them without the Holy Spirit, just much harder. Like I say, I do not believe the Holy Spirit reveals things which cannot be demonstrated from the Bible.

OK, that's good to know.
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4.14

#42 Huldah

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:37 AM

Mercia, here is why I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is an angel:

1 Pet 1.12

It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

How can 'a' Holy Spirit need to look into these things if 'the' Holy Spirit is teaching these things?

Edited by Huldah, 19 July 2011 - 12:38 AM.

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4.14

#43 Mercia2

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 10:44 AM

Thanks Dave. I wasn't aware that "religious babble" and "hogwash" was unacceptable. It's actually quite mild compared to the debates that raged throughout history on a number of religious subjects.

It is pretty unimpressive acting in such a manner when you get all your assumptions wrong. Imagine how it looks to me.

Since all of your comments, as well as your entire scheme of interpreting the Apocalypse, are grounded on the above premise (which I reject),

What a surprise
So you spent a long time looking in to it and praying about it then? Not a good start is it. Every prophecy I can think of has dual fulfillment, why do you think the last prophetic book would not be the same? Why do you believe the main part of the book of Revelation and the continuous Historicist fulfillment came to an end about 150 years or more ago? When the last 150 years have been the most unique in human history with population massively increasing?

No Historicist has ever presented an acceptable interpretation of Revelation chapter 10 and the seven thunders. The OT correspondence clearly interprets the thunders as warnings via the Word of God (prophecies) and John confirms this in being about to write them down but told not. It is perfectly clear to anyone who is willing to give this matter a little study and thought that chapter 10/the seven thunders is telling us their is a dual fulfillment, i.e 7 more prophecies John was about to write down that he was told no need (then why even tell us) and then the chapter ending "Prophesy AGAIN". Just look were this chapter is situated and ask yourselves why.

As soon as this fact dawns on you then and that the reason chapter 10 is after trumpet 6 but before trumpet 7 (where all prophecy ends) is OBVIOUSLY because it is delivering a dual fulfillment at the end of trumpet 6 as part of the fulfillment of prophetic historicism, or rather one last final fulfillment in this last unique age, which is just the continuation of Historicism. If you cannot clearly see this I ask you to please pray about it and suspend your nature inclination to want to attack or fight me - Read Revelation 10 again, the whole narrative, it will become very obvious it is about dual fulfillment of seven prophecies John had already written down, "prophesy AGAIN" = dual fulfillment, you would have to be blind not to see it?

Yes, mans worst ever disaster is in their as a warning for nuclear proliferation, some thing relevant to this generation, that we should be using to motivate the youth, not being outdone by atheist leftists like Green Peace. We all know the RCC is condemned, we all know the history of Roman persecution. Those who do not know must be taught this, nothing is more important keeping this knowledge alive, but the words "prophesy again" are intended for an audience reading the Revelation after trumpet 6 was fulfilled. God has found you sleeping, everyone in this age.

Consumerism is the biggest threat to spiritual destruction of all time, that system will be the final system to appose Christ before the second coming, whatever you believe that to mean. We have a global mono culture and a literal mark on everything we buy and sell for the first time ever and the only unchanging structure of it world wide corresponds precisely (to the human eye) to a left hand 6, the designer admits this, so we have 3 guard bars in which the two lines that correspond in width and space apart correspond identically to the human eye to the left 6, sure it could be coincidence, first ever global code, buy or sell, on a commerce system, that is global "he causeth all" and the only unchanging structure is identical to a left 6, that is then repeated not twice, not four times or not at all, but thrice. Probably a few thousand to one? a few hundred to one? No idea but for you their is enough reason not to believe and for me their is enough reason to believe.

Now if I was denying these prophecies have a more important symbolic interpretation and putting forward these ideas I would be a ignorant futurist, someone you immediately assumed I was and now find it hard to pull back from that position without losing face. I have studied Historicist prophecy pretty much non stop for 10 years and wrote thousands of pages about it.

As I said in a previous post, any prophecy can be pulled apart by technicalities because God has no choice but to do it that way to preserve free will and autonomy, no prophecy can stand the tests Christadelphians apply to the UPC and Chernobyl theory. In both examples their will be enough technicalities to allow this to be put down to random chance and coincidence (and I have explained why in detail above) - to protect autonomy and free will. So we can go around in circles all day long on whether it is relevant or not the computer reads the guard bars as 6 or if a nuclear power plant the world has come to know just by the word "Chernobyl" is technically the town so debunks the prophecy. To you it does, to me it certainly does not. Especially in light of how almost all prophecy is fulfilled.

First of all you have to prove to me why you believe the very nature of prophecy (which is dual fulfillment) does not apply alone with the book of Revelation. Also, you need to explain to me why no Historicist has presented an explanation for Chapter 10 that makes any sense until it now becomes obvious John was about to write the seven thunders down but was told not to because they are already written down i.e it is blatantly about dual fulfillment - atleast of seven.

(especially when you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you to such a premise, thereby implying all who don't adhere to said premise aren't being guided by that same Holy Spirit).

If I find the key to a prophecy I glory in God like the Bible tells me to, the alternative to that is boast in the pride of your own intellectual superiority. Which do you prefer?

Your faulty premise goes completely against the scope of the Apocalypse (which is God's dealings with the Roman "earth" and its relation to the Church from John's day to Christ's return).

The Church age ended around 1844, up until that point it was about the Roman earth as you put it and the Church. You are stuck in the past, your own words "from Johns day to Christs return". The Church lost its power a long time ago, we are now in the last era of the main Christian gentile nations as typologically fulfilled in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, lion (UK), leopard (Germany), bear (Russia) missing eagle from Daniel 7 is Beast out of the Earth, Protestant America. Imagine all those symbols as representing their modern nations IN the image of the King of Babylon in the book of Daniel. Now ask, who is the typological king of Babylon? It is the popes of Rome, so we have all todays modern nations IN the image of the popes of Rome, the typological king of Babylon who became a beast. This is the fulfillment of prophecy and what Revelation 13 is now revealing. Modern man is in the image (same character) as the blasphemous, materialistic medievil popes of Rome.

The symbols get more literal? The last statement is completely absurd, not to mention being an oxymoron. Either a symbol is symbolic of something else, or it can't be called a symbol at all. There is no such thing as a "literal symbol."

A more literal symbol is easy to understand. The first symbol is discovered through corrospondance with the OT, the last is more literal, a star is literally a nuclear reactor, but it is still a symbol of course. You know what I meant so why you still trying to attack me on technicalities I ask myself? Is this about immaturity and ego? Are you serious about looking into this or just looking to do some forum board bashing? I remain thinking the latter unless I see a change.

Edited by Mercia2, 19 July 2011 - 03:46 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#44 Mercia2

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:29 AM

It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

You are probably not going to like this answer, but as it happened and as it relates to your question I am going to say it anyway. When the angel spoke to me at the papal mass in 1982 one of the first things he said was "I have been reading your book", I replied out loud, feeling embarrassed as other people around me were thinking I was talking to myself, "I have not wrote a book", but the angel then explained he had been reading a book (actually more a document made into book form) that I wrote at the age of 28 I think, about Chernobyl and the Universal Product Code and the possibility they represented a dual fulfillment and he said he had been reading it as it was 'interesting' and that the third version was the one that was most right. So this tells me as I know this happened that angels do not know every prophetic mystery but are always also looking into these things. Probably reading forums like this and everything we type to each other with great interest. We know this from the Bible because the Bible says no one knows when the Second Coming will be, not even the angels. I know they take a great interest in such things.

I think you will one day find they are just men, holy men, powerful spirit beings, but men nevertheless.

by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels desire to look. (1 Peter 1: 10-12)

I think the Holy Spirit in that content could be an angel of higher rank or even Jesus, in which other angels desire to know his message. It must mean Jesus in that context. I believe the Holy spirit can be the holiest spirit, Jesus, or the body of Christ in heaven, one of his angels. There is zero other Bible explanation for the Holy Spirit and it cannot be an unknowable mystery.

Edited by Mercia2, 19 July 2011 - 03:16 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#45 Richard

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 11:38 AM

Basing a doctrine and the salvic health of 100,000 people on one single verse, and your own interpretation of that verse, is foolish.


Where did I say it was on one verse?

There's only one verse you ever bring up to support your notion.

What basis do you claim the right to ignore it?

Ignore what? You on this topic (sensible)? Or the Luke verse (silly)? I don't ignore the Luke verse. In fact I try and obey it every day.

What is this other inteprretation to the word "ask" that you are implying by claiming the verse is open to interpretations?

I don't offer an alternative to the word "ask".

The fourth question for you to answer which is detailed above, is do you think that you, (if you lived in OT times as a Jew) and regularly studied the Scripture, could you or would you have believed the Messiah would be both despised, rejected and killed, as well as be mighty conquering king by proclaiming a first and second coming/dual fulfillment?

I don't know.

#46 Mercia2

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:59 PM

Ignore what? You on this topic (sensible)? Or the Luke verse (silly)? I don't ignore the Luke verse. In fact I try and obey it every day.

You think the Luke verse is silly?
I think what you are going to say is you fulfill it by obeying Gods commands or something like that, some answer other than asking for the Holy Spirit? If not please correct me as I am guessing here...

There's only one verse you ever bring up to support your notion.

Actually one verse would be enough unless you could give me a valid reason to ignore it. What you are doing is requesting your ministering angel 1:14 "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?", that verse is talking about your Holy Spirit, content is to minister, obviously in conjunction with studying the Word. The Spirit seals the believer until the day of redemption. It is the work of the Spirit to convict the world of sin, that means the angels.
John 16:14; Luke 24:24; Rom . 8:26, Acts 1:8, 1 Cor. 12:31, 14:1, John 14:16-17, Matt 3:11


I don't know.


You do not know if you could have predicted the context of Christs ministry and a dual fulfillment/second coming prior to the first advent? But the Jews are condemned and punished for this?

So is it not obvious the Jews are being punished because they did not ask for the Holy Spirit, as by the Holy Spirit only could such things have been made known. That is the devastating reality as for as the CD POV. The Bible plainly tells us no correct interpretation of prophecy is without it. Christadelphians need to reflect on the full implications of this in light of the fact the Jews are separated from God at the moment because they could not understand the prophecies (because they did not have the Holy Spirit). Hint for us.

Huldah

by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels desire to look. (1 Peter 1: 10-12)

I think the Holy Spirit in that content could be an angel of higher rank or even Jesus, in which other angels desire to know his message. It must mean Jesus in that context. I believe the Holy spirit can be the holiest spirit, Jesus, or the body of Christ in heaven, one of his angels. There is zero other Bible explanation for the Holy Spirit and it cannot be an unknowable mystery.

Huldah again

Mercia, here is why I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is an angel:

But in absence of any other Biblical explanation what do you think 'the Holy Spirit' is?

Here is the killer question, why do you need a ministering angel and the Holy Spirit to each us? The Bible has them fulfilling the same role. Is not one enough? I think that alone practically proves we are talking about the same thing?

.

Edited by Mercia2, 19 July 2011 - 03:42 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#47 Richard

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:36 AM

Ignore what? You on this topic (sensible)? Or the Luke verse (silly)? I don't ignore the Luke verse. In fact I try and obey it every day.

You think the Luke verse is silly?

No, I am saying it would be silly to ignore it.

I think what you are going to say is you fulfill it by obeying Gods commands or something like that, some answer other than asking for the Holy Spirit? If not please correct me as I am guessing here...

I ask for God's holy spirit in the same way David asked for it in Psalm 51.

#48 Huldah

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:33 AM

But in absence of any other Biblical explanation what do you think 'the Holy Spirit' is?

The power and presence of God. But a five word sentence doesn't really sum it up.

Here is the killer question, why do you need a ministering angel and the Holy Spirit to each us? The Bible has them fulfilling the same role. Is not one enough? I think that alone practically proves we are talking about the same thing?

We might be, but I think you just lost me with the question! I'm not sure what you're actually asking about...
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4.14

#49 Mercia2

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 05:41 PM

I ask for God's holy spirit in the same way David asked for it in Psalm 51.

Hi Richard, Psalm 51 says "Take Not Thy Holy Spirit from Me" (Psalm 51:11).

It is talking about David already having the Holy Spirit, not asking for the Holy Spirit, it is a bit like me saying now please do not take the Holy Spirit from me as I have sinned (see my last video its same context as Psalm 51).

I notice what people do in organised religion is just assume they have the Holy Spirit without ever specifically asking for the Holy Spirit. It is like the priest saying "maybe the Holy Spirit be with you all" at the end of his church of england sermon. But it is NOT going to work, because...

1. It is not upto the Priest to tell the Holy Spirit what to do (but you on a personal level).
2. God is not going to infringe your free will, if you do not ask you do not get.

Just to reiterate, the key is in the ASKING. It is all about free-will and that is why the key is in asking on a personal level. But as I have said before, DO NOT do it if absolute proof and all that brings scares you. With absolute proof on a personal level you will not be able to abide in sin anymore as you will have no place left to hide. You will not be able to hide in Biblical skepticism or those moments of slight of doubt, all that will be no more, if God thinks you can handle it.

Huldah said...

The power and presence of God. But a five word sentence doesn't really sum it up.

Hi Huldah, you are not going to give me some vague mystery like Catholic idea of the HS are you? By saying the power of presence of God all you are doing is explaining an attribute, it is a bit like me saying the British army are the "power and presence of the British state", of course that would be true, but more specifically the British army are a large group of men. So likewise, the Bible reveals the Holy Spirit is the power and presence of God, but specifically that is in the form of Jesus and the angels. Nothing mysteries about it.

If you Christadelphians can present another theory then lets have it, but I know you cant and I know my interpretation is correct as its the only one offered by the Bible.

We might be, but I think you just lost me with the question! I'm not sure what you're actually asking about...

What I am saying is, the Bible says the Holy Spirit ministering/teaches us all things, the Bible also says we have a ministering spirit that does the same. So do you imagine our ministering spirit and the Holy Spirit are BOTH employed in the same role, does that make any sense at all? of course not, obviously the Holy Spirit and what the book of Hebrews calls our ministering spirit are the same.

Christadelphians know God personifies things so it should hardly be a surprise to any of you that "the Holy Spirit" is just a collective personification for the entire company of holy spirits/angels.

Unbound
- where are you? You cannot just turn up here, throw about a lot of ignorant insults, assume I am some stupid Futurist, get it all wrong and then disapear. You have previous posts to answer.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#50 Mercia2

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:20 AM

Unbound..

I agree. So let's put your theory to the test. Please demonstrate from any prophecy in the Bible where a symbol stopped representing that which it signified, and suddenly turned into the literal object mentioned. And note the chronology before you begin.


Unbound, your question was valid until you said, "symbol stopped representing". If something has two modes/levels of meaning it does not mean the other mode stops, I have noticed this is a trait of either Christadelphians or just modern people that they seem to think nothing exists beyond one mode of understanding of it (reductionism). It is a bit like saying "who made me, my mum and dad when they had sex or God", belief in one does not stop being in the other. So before we continue you need to acknowledge this sort of reasoning is reductionist without a reason and while you may be used to others not noticing it, you will not get away with it when debating with me.

Please demonstrate from any prophecy in the Bible where a symbol stopped representing that which it signified, and suddenly turned into the literal object mentioned


Ok, one example of a symbol having two dual applications in that sense is the eagle in Daniel 7, as representing the head/Babylon and as also typologically representing the fourth beast as Rome. The eagle was literally the Roman standard.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#51 Unbound68

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 07:51 PM

Unbound..

Please demonstrate from any prophecy in the Bible where a symbol stopped representing that which it signified, and suddenly turned into the literal object mentioned


Ok, one example of a symbol having two dual applications in that sense is the eagle in Daniel 7, as representing the head/Babylon and as also typologically representing the fourth beast as Rome. The eagle was literally the Roman standard.


Mercia,

This is why a reasonable debate with you cannot happen.

First, don't presume I came in here to start a flame war, just because I haven't responded to your inane posts as quickly as you would have liked me to. I do have a life and responsibilities. When I have the time, I will compose responses to anyone I've engaged. When I don't have time, I may quickly browse the board to see what's been said. Look at the date that I joined this board, then look at my post count. I'm the farthest from anything resembling a daily poster, such as yourself. Why do you automatically assume I'm ignoring you or have no answers? Your post asking where I am seems rather like a bunch of grandstanding.

Second, your response to my challenge above is completely inadequate and has gotten you no further than you were when I made it. In your Chernobyl interpretation, you say a star represented ministers/angels up until about halfway through the 19th century, but now refers to a literal star, per your "nuclear reactor" theory. But in your Daniel example, an eagle "represents" something other than an eagle in both instances, and by your own admission (see the bolded words in my citation of you)!

If something "represents" something else, then, by definition, it can't be literal. Further, in Daniel 7 it is a LION that represents the kingdom of Babylon, not an eagle.

And the fact that an eagle was "literally" the Roman standard still makes that eagle a symbol, sorry to say. In other words, they chose the eagle as the standard because it meant something.

Edited by Unbound68, 22 July 2011 - 08:32 PM.


#52 Unbound68

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 07:56 PM

Unbound..

I agree. So let's put your theory to the test. Please demonstrate from any prophecy in the Bible where a symbol stopped representing that which it signified, and suddenly turned into the literal object mentioned. And note the chronology before you begin.


Unbound, your question was valid until you said, "symbol stopped representing". If something has two modes/levels of meaning it does not mean the other mode stops


Uh, this is what's known as begging the question. You first have to prove your premise, before you use that premise --the very thing in contention-- to "prove" me wrong. I already told you I reject your premise.

#53 Unbound68

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 07:59 PM

Since all of your comments, as well as your entire scheme of interpreting the Apocalypse, are grounded on the above premise (which I reject),

What a surprise
So you spent a long time looking in to it and praying about it then?


As a matter of fact, yes. And the Holy Spirit guided me to the conclusions to which I adhere. Now what do we do? We both claim the same guidance from the same Holy Spirit, and yet we each reach different conclusions. Hmmmm.

Edited by Unbound68, 22 July 2011 - 08:00 PM.


#54 Unbound68

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 08:06 PM

Mercia writes:

No Historicist has ever presented an acceptable interpretation of Revelation chapter 10 and the seven thunders.


I highly doubt you've examined the Apocalypse commentaries and treatises of all who have preceded you. I have thousands of them and have barely even scratched the surface. Your statement here is based on your own lack of evidence, rather than on a thorough investigation of it. Try not to confuse the two. Dismissing the testimony of all who have gone before you, when you haven't even examined all such testimony, is dishonest.

Edited by Unbound68, 22 July 2011 - 08:39 PM.


#55 Unbound68

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 08:12 PM

This will be my last post tonite, as I have other things to do.

Mercia wrote:

Consumerism is the biggest threat to spiritual destruction of all time, that system will be the final system to appose Christ before the second coming


Completely unscriptural. It is the beast that was prophesied to prohibit "consumerism;" i.e., no buying and selling to or by anyone without the mark of the beast. The "threat" was to those who disobeyed such a prohibition. You're arguing as if you, yourself, would prohibit consumerism if it were up to you. Such would put you on the Beast's side, not Christ's.

Edited by Unbound68, 22 July 2011 - 08:30 PM.


#56 Mercia2

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 04:06 PM

Mercia,

This is why a reasonable debate with you cannot happen.

First, don't presume I came in here to start a flame war, just because I haven't responded to your inane posts

Then how about you dissapear until you learn to speak to me right? I notice you then proceed to post 5 posts in a row and all have been edited because you know you are up against it with me.

Second, your response to my challenge above is completely inadequate and has gotten you no further than you were when I made it. In your Chernobyl interpretation, you say a star represented ministers/angels up until about halfway through the 19th century, but now refers to a literal star, per your "nuclear reactor" theory. But in your Daniel example, an eagle "represents" something other than an eagle in both instances, and by your own admission (see the bolded words in my citation of you)!


We can do without the loaded language you seem to be addicted to in every post (see bold above), especially as you will not be able to back it up....

Please re-read your paragraph above and then re-read my last reply to you and see if you can see what is wrong with it? You say above "star represented ministers/angels up until about halfway through the 19th century". What did I say in my last post?

Here it is..

Unbound, your question was valid until you said, "symbol stopped representing". If something has two modes/levels of meaning it does not mean the other mode stops, I have noticed this is a trait of either Christadelphians or just modern people that they seem to think nothing exists beyond one mode of understanding of it (reductionism). It is a bit like saying "who made me, my mum and dad when they had sex or God", belief in one does not stop being in the other. So before we continue you need to acknowledge this sort of reasoning is reductionist without a reason and while you may be used to others not noticing it, you will not get away with it when debating with me.


First you need to perceive your mental limitation in which you assume something with multiple meanings replaces all previous meanings and that the two cannot mutually abide in their own contexts which is clearly not true.

You are quite capable of understanding that the main Historicist understanding of prophecies with dual fulfillment (as per the seven additional thunders) exist simultaneously in your understanding or anyone elses understanding at the same time. Both deal with different time frames, this is not hard for you to understand and indeed God expects it from us when we deal with prophecy. For example, the same prophecies that also talk of the first coming of Christ also allude to the context of the second coming, both can be understood in their respective contexts and timezone. Your sort of reductionist assumption is I believe a mental trait and deficiency of the modern engineering imbued materialistic mind and is something the angel specifically said I need to point out to Christadelphians.

Ok, so one is not replacing the other, that idea exists only within the limitations of your own mind. We are no longer living in the age in which the Vatican lorded it over kings and other Christians, we are now in the age of the nations, is it not plainly obvious to you these are different times? This century has been so unique it is almost like all 19 previous centuries have been rolled into one as far as progress and world population, I have heard commentators explain it that way and that is exactly why this last century had its own fulfillment and exactly why the seven thunders and chapter 10 is situated in the position it is in the book of Revelation. Even the JWs know this and seemingly are aware the seven thunders and the instruction at the end to "prophesy again" represents a dual fulfillment, although their material never explains this but certainly alludes to it, in their description of chapter 10 they refer to the seven thunders as seven more prophecies louder or more literal than before and seven last warnings, then allude to pollution being literal, destruction of marine life being literal and show a photo of Chernobyl if not actually mention it. And lo, we are living in a century unlike the previous 19 in which we are indeed literally polluting the earth and literally destroying a third of all marine life, I guess to you that is more irrelevant coincidence, but we also lived through a century in which their was a war on earth unlike any other war then or since, 58 million died and a third of all the worlds maritime shipping was sunk.

you say a star represented ministers/angels up until about halfway through the 19th century,


No I say a star will always represent an angel or minister in the spiritual sense. Re-read my post above about ideas existing in more than one mode of understanding at the same time. You use the example of the eagle, well just as the eagle has attributes in the spiritual/symbolic sense in the Bible (it is used as a symbol for the Gods Spirit) i.e carried on the eagles wings, but it ALSO has symbolic meaning as representing a kingdom in Daniel and later the Roman empire, so I think you need to completely re-evaluate your innate reductionist tendencies as that is three, I repeat 3, uses of the same symbol in prophecy, all 3 of which I know you cannot deny. So when it comes to Bible symbols (as I have just demonstrated above with that one example), your reductionist narrative is wrong.

But in your Daniel example, an eagle "represents" something other than an eagle in both instances, and by your own admission (see the bolded words in my citation of you)!


If you had to pick a symbol from all the natural symbols available in the Bible to describe mans worst ever man made accident/nuclear disaster, then you will not find anything better to use than a star. There are loads of examples in the OT in which prophecies are fulfilled more literally to begin with and then the same symbols take on a more spiritual metaphoric interpretation in their dual application. In Revelation it is the reverse, because the NT is in reverse to the OT, the OT is written as if literal, the NT is written as it symbolic, the OT was literal to begin with (the prophecies were fulfilled literally and then spiritually), the NT the prophecies are fulfilled symbolically and then literally. The reason why the OT is written in reverse in this way to the NT is because what is natural comes first and what is spritual comes last.

Why do you imagine the OT prophecies pretty much seem to all have dual fulfillment in the literal and then typological sense and yet NT prophecies have one fulfillment only?

If something "represents" something else, then, by definition, it can't be literal

I said a "more literal interpretation", the key is in the word "more" as I explained previously.

And the fact that an eagle was "literally" the Roman standard still makes that eagle a symbol, sorry to say. In other words, they chose the eagle as the standard because it meant something.

and the fact a star is literally a nuclear reactor still makes the star in this context a symbol for the same, otherwise instead of a star it would just say "and wormwood the nuclear reactor". So how does any of that help you? The star is a symbol, in its symbolic spiritual form it represents angels/ministers and in its (more) literal form it represents what it represents, nuclear energy. In other words God chose the symbol of the star in this dual application because it meant something in both applications. Infact the very reason the prophecies in the book of Revelation are written as they are is to give room for a dual application, similar OT prophecies in Isaiah etc are written in the exact same way.

Uh, this is what's known as begging the question. You first have to prove your premise, before you use that premise --the very thing in contention-- to "prove" me wrong. I already told you I reject your premise.

Huh, that is rich, you are begging and arguing your POV from silence. As you have seen, if I was presenting such ideas without knowing these prophecies have been fulfilled according to Historicist interpretation and had I not explained very clearly why their is a dual fulfillment i.e (Chapter 10 is about dual fulfillment), then you would be in a position to mock me, but so far you have failed to refute either my claim that chapter 10/the seven thunders that ends "prophesy again" is indeed about dual fulfillment, nor have you been able to explain why chapter 10 follows trumpet 6 which was fulfilled last century, nor have you been able to therefore explain the seeming delay between trumpet 6 and trumpet 7, which chapter 10 separates, trumpet 7 being the end of all things/the second coming.

Furthermore, neither have you (or anyone previously on several boards including an atheist board) been able to dispute that these can indeed be read as prophecies and that the random chance of, for example, the name of mans worst ever man made disaster along with a description of it as just pure chance, when their are 500.000 words in the english language and despite your earlier incorrect assumption, Wormwood does translate Chernobyl where it happened, is probably a atleast a few thousand to one. If you believe in such coincidences with the Bible in the context of prophecy when God knows the end from the beginning, then that is your call, I would take a different view. But to mock it as nonsense is just delusional, it is their, it exists, it cannot be debunked, deal with it.

By the way, neither have you attempted to rationally explain why the first ever global mark on everything we buy or sell just so happens to have for its only unchanging structure, the guard bars, the two lines that correspond (to the human eye) to the left number 6. The designer of the UPC chose the two lines that represent the left 6 to use for the its only unchanging structure, the guard bars, he admits this. Sure you have enough room to put it down to chance coincidence, but that is the point with all prophecy, it is only persuasive but it is never proof of anything, or when those prophecies are presented to atheists they would convert, but they don't, they just find technicalities in them which gives them a way out. Although from all the prophecies I have tried on 5 years of constant debates with some of the best debating atheists, the two prophecies that they admitted was almost beyond chance fulfillment was Chernobyl and the UPC, that is after we had months of me first having to prove Wikipedia and Snoopes had got it wrong.

As explained earlier, as with all prophecies their is enough room to find technicalities in which it can be explained as just coincidence, but some of us know their can be no such thing as coincidence where the Bible is concerned because God transcends time.

What I am saying is this is undeniable. All you can do now is to try and explain why chapter 10 is blatantly talking about a dual fulfillment and is situated after trumpet 6 for a reason, in that context, what is your explanation for this? It is no use referring back to men of old who tried to interpret chapter 10 before its time.

You will also need to explain to me why John was about to write these seven additional prophecies down but was told not to, if this does not mean they are already written down and represent a dual fulfillment of the trumpet prophecies then you need to explain to me why we are even told about them, or why John was told not to write them down. Also, you need to explain why the word "again", which the whole world understands to mean 'more than once' is plainly used in the context of prophesy at the end of chapter 10, "you must...prophesy AGAIN".

If you want to try and debunk whether Chernobyl does translate to wormwood, you are wasting your time as it has already been done. Despite the blatant lies on wikipedia and snoopes.com you can use online translators, refer to the Chernobyls own Museum in the Ukraine, various linguistic experts and the president of the country who read out the prophecy at the UN General Assembly and said in our language Wormwood is Chernobyl and that he believed it was a stunning warning from God about nuclear proliferation and should be acted upon.

Yet today you would be hard pressed to find a Christadelphian who knows any of this, so rampant has the debunking job been done on the prophecy and a more pro nuclear proliferation sect of Christians than the Christadelphians it would sadly be hard to find, maybe that is why I have to do this.

As a matter of fact, yes. And the Holy Spirit guided me to the conclusions to which I adhere. Now what do we do? We both claim the same guidance from the same Holy Spirit, and yet we each reach different conclusions. Hmmmm.


There are a number of problems wrong with that above comment..
1. You cannot have the Holy Spirit if you are part of a man made arrangement/organised Christianity, as you have told God that you are wedding yourself to a load of inherited doctrines/ideas. You need to tell Him you are going to stop doing that and mean it and then pray again for guidance and light. Just subscribing to religious dogma is leaning on the arm of the flesh, it is not trusting God, but going down to Egypt instead of CALLING UPON the name of the Lord, until those actions are undone then claims to have the Holy Spirit as to wisdom and insight is not possible. Revelation 14 clearly reveals all those defiled by women are unsaved at the time of the end meaning only non demons can be saved. That is as long as you accept a symbolic women means a church/body of believers which from Bible symbolism is undeniable.

2. The very language you use i.e "yet we reach different conclusions" reveals that you are repeating what seems to be a Christadelphian line you have been taught? in order to discredit the Holy Spirit or rather discredit a belief in it working through us today.

Just to put this into perspective, what you claim is "very different" is the fact I believe all the same Historicist fulfillment, but interpret chapter 10 as clearly revealing seven additional prophecies and the instruction to prophesy again sometime after trumpet 6 (their is no other correct interpretation of chapter 10, it was not fulfilled until after trumpet 6) which is after John Thomas' time and all the Historicists in your learned books, as was a correct interpretation of trumpet 6 by the way. So it is no good Christadephians hanging on the coattails of those who could not have interpreted the fulfillment of something if it was not as clear in their time. This is why the angel said to me that all inspiration in prophecy had stopped after your church was founded, things have moved on, hint, prophecy in continuous, Christ has not returned yet.

3. You have so far found out about the correct interpretation of chapter 10/the seven thunders for about 3 days or so and so I know you have had no time to study it, pray about it, at the moment I can easily tell you are still wrapped up in a sort of reactionary misguided zeal to me, so emotionally you are in no place mentally for the Holy Spirit to be revealing anything to you, I can tell them by your loaded emotional words, you are still interested in trying to win debates on forums than learning anything new. So I think the best thing I can do is not try and wind you up but just ignore you for a few months and then start our relationship again and see if you are humble enough to accept this, or to at least debate me on what chapter 10 is actually revealing - because it all hinges on whether the seven thunders/prophecies delivered after trumpet 6 in chapter 10, that John was about to write but was told not to and then told "prophesy again", means dual fulfillment or not. I say it blatantly does and as soon as that is admitted then everything else changes. As you then have to find these seven additional prophecies, some of which I have presented. They are signs only for those looking.

4. If you read back you will see I explained that the Holy Spirit will not overrule the injection of ones own ideas, the Holy Spirit only works when we let go of our will, something impossible to do if you are wedded to defending church doctrine or religious creed.

But just to clarify, the Holy Spirit and angels are one of the same. In 1982 I had a once in a lifetime experience in which an angel spoke to me at a papal mass, not just about the fact the RCC is condemned in prophecy and we were Catholics at the time, but he said that I would have a great interest in Bible prophecy when I was older and that he had been reading my work (that I would not write for another 20 years), he then specifically made me pronounce Chernobyl out load to those around me aware I was talking to an angel/having a vision, I repeated what the angel said when he quoted my own writing back to me he said he had reading "chernobyl will explode in 1986" and no one knew what chernobyl was, I even had to ask the angel to repeat it so I could pronounce it correctly for those around me, my grandmother wrote this down and put it in a draw, 4 years later she came around my uncles house with that piece of paper as I was watching the Chernobyl disaster on the news, she was waving the paper around saying, look, this is what he said. My uncle then asked me if I predicted this and I wanted to tell him it was not me, the angel at the papal mass said it to me, but I knew I was not allowed to talk about it until I was older (it was for when I was older), so I said nothing, I just sat their staring at the news on the TV, the only thing I said was 'its worse than they think', 15 years later my gran died of Lukemia, probably just coincidence but I somehow doubt it.

The angel also specifically got me to explain that their would be a literal mark on everything we buy or sell. The angel would have been fully aware I detest futurism and will defend Historicism to the hilt, so this dual application as part of the seven thunders is safe with me, I remain and will always remain fully aware the symbolic/spiritual sense connects us to our brothers in ages gone by and the persecution they suffered for the liberty of the Word. So I want it to be fully known that the important sense of these prophecies (and indeed all prophecy that has dual fulfillment) is its spiritual sense.
I personally had the impression that the angel spent alot of time studying theology and prophecy and was perhaps only in a slightly more advanced position as far as eschatology and that his/their knowledge is not that much more advanced than the best of us, they are after all just former men and it appears angels are also kept in the dark to some degree about such things, I may be wrong about that it is just a guess based on what I can tell from Scripture. I do not rule out the possibility that while the angel found it interesting it was still wrong. Although I was told I would know what to write to them (the Christadelphians) in the context of their errors, although the context was mainly reductionism, I also had to listen to them about something although I am not quite sure what. However I was specifically told that their had been 'no real inspiration' in the context of prophecy since John Thomas got some things right, until now I suppose. The angel said I would know what to write to the Christadelphians - the implication in what the angel said with those words was that I would be made to know - to me today implies the Holy Spirit.

In summary:
Until a few years ago I had this knowledge that while wikipedia and almost all other Christians were under the false impression that Chernobyl/wormwood was a hoax and that by force of repetition Christadelphians believe that because a computer does not read the guard bars as 6 and it is only identical to a six to the human eye, that therefore the prophecy is debunked, I knew this was not so, but I did not then know about the seven thunders and that chapter 10 actually reveals a dual fulfillment. Even I was starting to wonder why an angel would quote back to me something that was wrong, but then one day I prayed for guidance and was almost immediately shown that chapter 10 can refer to nothing but a dual fulfillment, it even blatently says it at the end, "prophesy again", but for some reason until then I had been blind to what is obvious. All I knew was that an angel who knew I was a Hisotoricist said something to me that would be dangerous if said to an ignorant futurist, but all I knew was it had to be right, but I did not know how. Dual fulfillment had to be the answer but I needed some proof of that, suddenly I re-read chapter 10, noticed its position in the book and it all became clecar to me. That is why John was told not to write then down and why we were told, why else! The chapter specifically ends with us being told to prophecy again! It is a prophecy about the now well established concept of dual application/fulfillment. Interestingly I was also shown Revelation 12, in which their are two women and two seemingly parallel accounts, (their are also two Israels which are represented by the symbolic women), the Church (symbolic) and the nation (literal/Israel), if this is true it would support the Christadelphian POV that natural Israel today is indeed prophetically relevant (note its literal as well).

I believe this is a gift I am to give the Christadelphians, one day this will be established prophetic tradition as part of the continuous Historicist narrative. God gave it me because I devoted a lifetime (so far) to studying prophecy, more so than hardly any these days, I gave up work for 10 years to do so. God can use people like that, if they alo have no allegiances to organized religion and inherited ideas and dogmas that come with it. So I do not believe this has been revealed to hardly anyone in the world until now. But it is blatantly apparent when one looks again at chapter 10, what it says and where it is in the book and why.

I highly doubt you've examined the Apocalypse commentaries and treatises of all who have preceded you. I have thousands of them and have barely even scratched the surface. Your statement here is based on your own lack of evidence, rather than on a thorough investigation of it. Try not to confuse the two. Dismissing the testimony of all who have gone before you, when you haven't even examined all such testimony, is dishonest.

Are you the bloke from iconbusters or whatever it used to be called? I think we can identify your issues as well as his from the above verse.

Yes I have studied Historicism in great depth for 10 years, if you want to get into a competition on who has read the most I am not interested, but do not assume you would win.

It has nothing to do with dismissing the evidence, what you need to understand is that prophecy did not end 150 years ago, the second coming has not yet happened, so of course those who got much right also attempted to fulfill prophecies (that were not yet fulfilled), it is upto you to be intellectually sophisticated enough to work that out. Christadelphians hold to an older interpretation of Historicism not the more recent accepted one simply because Dr Thomas could not have seen what we can now see in his time

Try not to confuse the two. Dismissing the testimony of all who have gone before you, when you haven't even examined all such testimony, is dishonest

.
So you have proceeded your accusation on a false premise and then used that false premise to call me dishonest. Do you expect me to not notice stuff like that? You have been doing this since I first met you, is it going to end?

Consumerism is the biggest threat to spiritual destruction of all time, that system will be the final system to appose Christ before the second coming


Completely unscriptural. It is the beast that was prophesied to prohibit "consumerism;" i.e., no buying and selling to or by anyone without the mark of the beast. The "threat" was to those who disobeyed such a prohibition. You're arguing as if you, yourself, would prohibit consumerism if it were up to you. Such would put you on the Beast's side, not Christ's.

The whole context of Christianity is the fight against the flesh, that is what is good to the taste, good to the eyes, the pride of life and all that today is represented in what we call consumerism. It could not be more relevant to the entire narrative of our faith. What does the serpent represent today that persuades humankind to eat from that tree and all it represents? Obviously the commercial media.

Actually your idea of buying and selling is unscriptural, I do not know where you got that from the Bible as the Bible clearly reveals the context as buying and selling means ideas, we can also buy ideas from Jesus, or we can buy 666 talents of gold/knowledge from the Egyptians/natural man, as Solomon did. Buying and selling is what priests do, they buy and sell ideas, that is why in Revelation 18 they are called merchants that deceived the whole world, in the spiritual sense they merchandise Gods Word.

I am more than happy to go into every aspect and question you have concerning the UPC and in what context I believe the prophecy works. If you have specific questions fire away if you are sincerely interested, but you will find I have good answers.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#57 Mercia2

Mercia2

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 04:44 PM

When your ready then....
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/




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