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Arguments the Christian apologist should avoid


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#21 Unbound68

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:10 PM

Mercia wrote:

I have attempted to persuade Christadelphians of some of this, such as mans worst ever (man made) disaster, Chernobyl as Wormwood, which a stand at the Chernobyl museum confirms. So it was a star (nuclear reactor) that literally killed many because of the waters (it rained heavily for 3 weeks over europe), Rev 8:10-11. But while the translation cannot be denied anymore, someone would say something like 'aha, yes a star is nuclear but it's fusion not fission' and therefore consider the prophecy debunked.

Yet is their a better natural symbol found in the Bible that God could have used to specifically identify fission from fusion? Obviously not, but a star/sun is still a nuclear reactor.


Mercia,

I will respond to the cited portion of your comments above. First let's look at the verse in Revelation to which you refer:

Then the third angel blew his trumpet, and a huge star burning like a torch fell from the sky; it landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. (Now the name of the star is Wormwood.) So a third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from these waters because they were poisoned.

Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2006; 2006). Re 8:10–11. (footnote referents within text removed by me for ease of reading. KD)



Your theory that wormwood has anything to do with Chernobyl seems untenable. I pointed this out to you at the other board, but you didn't address it. Here's what I said at the other board:

I visited the link you provided which deals with wormwood. You can't be serious. The Apocalypse was written in Greek. Linking "wormwood" in the Apocalypse with Chernobyl only works if the Apocalypse had been written in English. Secondly, *stars* in the Apocalypse never refer to cities. Thirdly, "wormwood" appears in the Old Testament (hint: it doesn't signify a city there either). And fourthly, scripture says wormwood is a *star* that fell from heaven. The city of Chernobyl didn't fall out of the sky, nor did the city of Chernobyl make the waters bitter. Your theory has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

Source: http://www.thechrist...pic=16096&st=30


Please address this here, as well as my comments from the same thread at the other board dealing with your interpretation that frogs = 3rd plague.

As for the bolded portion of your comments cited above, Christ tells us in no uncertain terms what "stars" in the Apocalypse represent. You are countermanding the very scriptures you claim to have read and had opened to you. Thus, your comment that we must "read the entire Bible, then the Holy Spirit will literally inspire you in devotional study to see allegories and corrospondances[sic] and keys, these are not things that are not their[sic] in the Bible but they are not easily seen unless prompted by your ministering angel," seems self-contradictory when you try telling us that stars no longer refer to ministers/angels, but to nuclear reactors!


Mercia writes:

No one can prove prophecy to any other human unless both parties have the Holy Spirit,


Indeed. So what do you suppose is guiding you away from Christ's interpretation of "stars" in the Apocalypse?

Edited by Evangelion, 18 July 2011 - 07:38 PM.


#22 Huldah

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:33 PM

Oh good grief. Mercia, please tell me you didn't plagiarize material from an Adventist site...
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4.14

#23 Huldah

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:36 PM

Too many human beings have tried to tell me with their human words that I can't simply understand what the Bible says God is saying, without taking on board their supernatural take on how to understand the Bible. So they want me to go along with their words before I go along with the God's words. Hmm...
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4.14

#24 Phil

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:48 PM

I just tried to report Unbound68's post above, but the board won't let me. I'm tired of people thinking it's acceptable to be nasty, just because they're hiding behind a computer screen.

#25 Evangelion

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:58 PM

Unbound68, please edit your post and make it socially acceptable. It is currently in breach of the forum rules.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#26 Mercia2

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:01 PM

As for the bolded portion of your comments cited above, you must not have been moved by the Holy Spirit (probably, or otherwise) when you wrote them. Christ tells us in no uncertain terms what "stars" in the Apocalypse represent.


You think I am some sort of nutty literalist futurist who is not aware what these symbols represent and that these prophecies had a symbolic Historicist fulfillment. You first need to understand what the seven thunders are, why they are delivered after trumpet 6 and before trumpet 7,why John was about to write them (i.e they are more prophecies) and why he was told not to (seven of them are already written down).

Please put some serious thought in to that first or you will just see me as another ridiculous Futurist. Your previous attempt at explaining the seven thunders was not according to what Bible symbolism in the OT reveals it. You first need to accept the very Bible symbolism and corrospondance you are talking about proves these seven additional prophecies already written down and so a dual fulfillment of most of the main prophecies in the Book of Revelation.

I pointed this out to you at the other board, but you didn't address it

I have not even seen it until now.

I visited the link you provided which deals with wormwood. You can't be serious. The Apocalypse was written in Greek. Linking "wormwood" in the Apocalypse with Chernobyl only works if the Apocalypse had been written in English.

The name given to the nuclear plant which is that of the nearest town is named after a the bitter herb
which the Chernobyl museum identifies as the same. So how does any of that help you?

Linking "wormwood" in the Apocalypse with Chernobyl only works if the Apocalypse had been written in English


You are aware in Ukraine it reads Chornobyl? That it is named after the same plant in Greek, right?

Secondly, *stars* in the Apocalypse never refer to cities.



Yes of course, we already have had the symbolic interpretation of that prophecy in the Historicist prophetic era, we are now talking about a dual fulfillment in which the thunders/warnings/prophecies get louder i.e more literal, the fulfillments and symbols become more literal as relating the world, no longer metaphoric and relating to the Church.

Look, you are a million miles away from understanding any of this or where I am coming from. You first need to find my posts on the seven thunders, little book, study it and we will start from their if you are serious.

Thirdly, "wormwood" appears in the Old Testament (hint: it doesn't signify a city there either)

See what I mean.
Yes as I have said I am fully aware of this I am talking about a DUAL FULFILLMENT that is signified by the seven thunders/seven additional prophecies delivered after trumpet 6 was fuilfilled in Historicist understanding around 1890, as their has already been a symbolic fulfillment of those prophecies than their cannot be another, go and read the dual fullfilment prophecies of the coming of Jesus and you will see they are spiritual and then more literal, even Christadelphians believe a metaphor for the Church, Israel, is not also literal of literal Israel in these latter times.

The city of Chernobyl didn't fall out of the sky, nor did the city of Chernobyl make the waters bitter.


What? The nuclear plant is known for nothing other than the name of the town nearby, by Chernobyl the world thinks of the nuclear plant, not the town. By claiming technicalities does not work, read my previous posts above as I explain why.

The world today says exactly what the prophecy says, Chernobyl (the nuclear power plant obviously not the town), Chernobyl exploded (the whole world understands what that means), your claim at referring this to the nearby town is exactly what I was referring to as disingenuous in my previous examples above. Chernobyl, as the world understands that to refer to the power plant named after a nearby town, exploded in 1984 and shot nuclear material over a mile into the sky, burning like a lamp it slowly fell to the earth poisoning an area about the size of a third of the earth and the reason people died was because it rained for 3 weeks all over Europe and the radiation got into the aquifers, the dew on grass cattle and sheep eat. One study put the death toll at 19 million from increased cancer deaths all over europe in the last 20 years, with increased cancer rates only peaking now. Mans worst ever man made disaster is one of the seven trumpets.

Christ tells us in no uncertain terms what "stars" in the Apocalypse represent. You are countermanding the very scriptures you claim to have read and had opened to you. Thus, your comment that we must "read the entire Bible, then the Holy Spirit will literally inspire you in devotional study to see allegories and corrospondances[sic] and keys, these are not things that are not their[sic] in the Bible but they are not easily seen unless prompted by your ministering angel," seems self-contradictory when you try telling us that stars no longer refer to ministers/angels, but to nuclear reactors!

So now you know I believe in the correspondences and allegories, am fully aware of the symbols and the established Historicist interpretation which I full believe and believe will always remain most important, but that I am talking about a DUAL LITERAL FULFILLMENT as part of the seven thunders being seven additional prophecies John was told not to write as they are already written down, so what do you think I think of you?

Do you want to try starting again....

Edited by Evangelion, 18 July 2011 - 07:40 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#27 Mercia2

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:06 PM

Oh good grief. Mercia, please tell me you didn't plagiarize material from an Adventist site.

I dont think Adventists believe this? But I do copy and paste sometimes as you know, rarely these days but I did on that thread but only to try and save time, I was probably over committed on lots of threads at the time, sorry.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#28 Unbound68

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:12 PM

Unbound68, please edit your post and make it socially acceptable. It is currently in breach of the forum rules.

Better?

#29 Mercia2

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:16 PM

Too many human beings have tried to tell me with their human words that I can't simply understand what the Bible says God is saying, without taking on board their supernatural take on how to understand the Bible. So they want me to go along with their words before I go along with the God's words. Hmm...

Well I do not agree with that and I do think some Christadelphians are inspired by the Holy Spirit at times just from praying for guidance when studying the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit makes it far easier to see the corrospondances and allegories but not that it is not possible to see them without the Holy Spirit, just much harder. Like I say, I do not believe the Holy Spirit reveals things which cannot be demonstrated from the Bible.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#30 Mercia2

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:20 PM

http://www.thechrist...pic=16096&st=30

Unbound, what is the post number on this link you want me to answer and can you re post the link I used so I can have a look at it.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#31 Evangelion

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:29 PM


Unbound68, please edit your post and make it socially acceptable. It is currently in breach of the forum rules.

Better?


No. But it is now.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#32 Unbound68

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:29 PM

I just tried to report Unbound68's post above, but the board won't let me. I'm tired of people thinking it's acceptable to be nasty, just because they're hiding behind a computer screen.

Good grief. Please don't confuse hyper-sensitivity on your part to nastiness on my part.

#33 Mercia2

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:29 PM

Unbound,2.30 am here in Blighty and work in the morning, you will have to be quick or it will have to wait until tomorrow....
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#34 Mercia2

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:31 PM

Good grief. Please don't confuse hyper-sensitivity on your part to nastiness on my part.


I will be the judge of that.
Now I am waiting for your explanation for misrepresenting me.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#35 Unbound68

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:32 PM



Unbound68, please edit your post and make it socially acceptable. It is currently in breach of the forum rules.

Better?


No. But it is now.

Thanks Dave. I wasn't aware that "religious babble" and "hogwash" was unacceptable. It's actually quite mild compared to the debates that raged throughout history on a number of religious subjects.

#36 Unbound68

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:37 PM




Unbound68, please edit your post and make it socially acceptable. It is currently in breach of the forum rules.

Better?


No. But it is now.

Thanks Dave. I wasn't aware that "religious babble" and "hogwash" was unacceptable. It's actually quite mild compared to the debates that raged throughout history on a number of religious subjects.

Nevermind. I see you also edited out my comments at the beginning. When I think someone's comments are ridiculous, I can't tell them so?


By the way, I'm not trying to start something with you Dave, so I will let you have the last word and bother you no more.

Edited by Unbound68, 18 July 2011 - 07:39 PM.


#37 Evangelion

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:40 PM

Mercia, I have edited your post to match Unbound's.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#38 Evangelion

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:42 PM

Thanks Dave. I wasn't aware that "religious babble" and "hogwash" was unacceptable. It's actually quite mild compared to the debates that raged throughout history on a number of religious subjects.


You're right, it's mild by comparison, but we're aiming for a higher tone here.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#39 Evangelion

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:42 PM

Nevermind. I see you also edited out my comments at the beginning. When I think someone's comments are ridiculous, I can't tell them so?


It's not a good idea if you're aiming for a sensible discussion. Simply telling them you disagree is sufficient.

By the way, I'm not trying to start something with you Dave, so I will let you have the last word and bother you no more.


It's fine mate, no bother. I just think it's better if we all cool down a bit.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#40 Unbound68

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:54 PM

Mercia wrote:

we are now talking about a dual fulfillment in which the thunders/warnings/prophecies get louder i.e more literal, the fulfillments and symbols become more literal as relating the world, no longer metaphoric and relating to the Church.


Since all of your comments, as well as your entire scheme of interpreting the Apocalypse, are grounded on the above premise (which I reject), it will be impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you (especially when you claim the Holy Spirit is guiding you to such a premise, thereby implying all who don't adhere to said premise aren't being guided by that same Holy Spirit).

Your faulty premise goes completely against the scope of the Apocalypse (which is God's dealings with the Roman "earth" and its relation to the Church from John's day to Christ's return). The fulfillments and symbols no longer relate to the Church? The symbols get more literal? The last statement is completely absurd, not to mention being an oxymoron. Either a symbol is symbolic of something else, or it can't be called a symbol at all. There is no such thing as a "literal symbol."

Christ, himself, refutes your premise:


From John, to the seven churches that are in the province of Asia:

Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2006; 2006). Re 1:4. (footnote referents removed)



The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2006; 2006). Re 1:20. (footnote referents removed)





Mercia writes:

I do not believe the Holy Spirit reveals things which cannot be demonstrated from the Bible.


I agree. So let's put your theory to the test. Please demonstrate from any prophecy in the Bible where a symbol stopped representing that which it signified, and suddenly turned into the literal object mentioned. And note the chronology before you begin.

Edited by Unbound68, 18 July 2011 - 10:01 PM.





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