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Inspiration And Exegesis


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#41 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 08:50 PM

...ie us. er, not sure if this is the answer you're looking for.....

Any answer is good for now. :thumbsup:

We can discuss the various implications of our answers as we go. :popcorn:

Well, to be honest, I always thought the function of the gospels was to create a preserved record to convert others down track who had never heard of Jesus...


I agree. Now how would you do this with the gospel records as they stand?

#42 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 08:56 PM

I agree. Now how would you do this with the gospel records as they stand?


Well, going with the 'any answer will do' policy you have just implemented.... give it to somebody to read?! Along with the other books. Which of course is what you are getting at. You therefore say that the other books prove that demons don't exist, which then nullifies any ideas created by the Gospels.

Correct?

#43 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:00 PM

Well, going with the 'any answer will do' policy you have just implemented.... give it to somebody to read?! Along with the other books.

Hee hee! A great answer, but not very likely. Literacy rates were almost zero, which is precisely why these books were almost never going to be read outisde of the context of the Christian community.

Which of course is what you are getting at.


Almost.

You therefore say that the other books prove that demons don't exist, which then nullifies any ideas created by the Gospels.


Almost. This may look like a copout at first, but believe me it is not. I am trying to come to an understanding of why the gospels would be written in a manner which seems to take for granted the existence of demons as supernatural agents of evil.

#44 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:07 PM

I could go with this argument if it weren't for the fact that it's not that clear cut in the epistles that demons don't exist. Certainly Paul argues that gods are nothing. But for a belief that was so prevalent at the time of Jesus (ie demons), the lack of energy spent on refuting such a false belief is fairly remarkable.

What I find even more weird is that in today's scientific day and age, (where demons in Jesus' time so obviously correlate to sickness and mental illness' of today) is that churches still believe in the existence of demons, primarily because of the gospels. So the 'compelling evidence' stated by Paul isn't that compelling. I have researched long and hard on the internet to find independant groups who hold the same beliefs as Christadelphians on the Devil and demon front, and I found none. There are groups who believe all of our other doctrines, but not this. Why is that?

#45 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:09 PM

Sorry, posted that last reply without looking at your answer....

#46 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:11 PM

I could go with this argument if it weren't for the fact that it's not that clear cut in the epistles that demons don't exist. Certainly Paul argues that gods are nothing. But for a belief that was so prevalent at the time of Jesus (ie demons), the lack of energy spent on refuting such a false belief is fairly remarkable.

What more does he need to say other than that they don't exist?

What I find even more weird is that in today's scientific day and age, (where demons in Jesus' time so obviously correlate to sickness and mental illness' of today) is that churches still believe in the existence of demons, primarily because of the gospels.


Well, I can't defend their inconsistency.

So the 'compelling evidence' stated by Paul isn't that compelling.


Most of them don't even know about it. Most Christians I speak to are totally unaware of what the Scritpural definition of a demon is.

I have researched long and hard on the internet to find independant groups who hold the same beliefs as Christadelphians on the Devil and demon front, and I found none. There are groups who believe all of our other doctrines, but not this. Why is that?


It's entrenched in part of the human psyche.

I think we still need to return to the issue of why the gospels would be written in a manner which seems to take for granted the existence of demons as supernatural agents of evil, and the purpose for which they were written.

How about we consider the use of the gospels as evangelical aids? How do you suppose they were used?

#47 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:12 PM

I am trying to come to an understanding of why the gospels would be written in a manner which seems to take for granted the existence of demons as supernatural agents of evil.


You are trying to understand? Or you are trying to help me understand? ;)

Hee hee! A great answer, but not very likely. Literacy rates were almost zero, which is precisely why these books were almost never going to be read outisde of the context of the Christian community


OK, so the 'pastors' of the ecclesias used the books as a preaching tool?

#48 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:15 PM

It's entrenched in part of the human psyche.


I disagree. We could say that a belief in an immortal soul is entrenched in the human psyche (which it is) yet there are many groups who don't believe in an immortal soul. Because of what they find in the Bible.

Edited by Grace, 03 October 2003 - 09:15 PM.


#49 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:15 PM

You are trying to understand? Or you are trying to help me understand? ;)

Bit of both. ^_^

OK, so the 'pastors' of the ecclesias used the books as a preaching tool?


Yes, I believe so, in the same way that we use the Old Testament. They needed an inspired record of these events.

Now here's the interesting thing - how were they going to use these gospel records as teaching aids?

#50 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:16 PM

I disagree. We could say that a belief in an immortal soul is entrenched in the human psyche (which it is) yet there are many groups who don't believe in an immortal soul. Because of what they find in the Bible.

Well what I really meant was the tendency for humans to attribute certain things to the supernatural. I think that is very much entrenched in the human psyche.

#51 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:17 PM

Now here's the interesting thing - how were they going to use these gospel records as teaching aids?


I have no idea. Does that fit into the 'any answer will do' model? :whistle:

#52 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:18 PM

Well what I really meant was the tendency for humans to attribute certain things to the supernatural. I think that is very much entrenched in the human psyche.


I agree. But then anyone who believes in God fits this model, so I don't think that's a very good argument.

#53 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:20 PM

I have no idea. Does that fit into the 'any answer will do' model? :whistle:

Yup. :clap2:

Ok, so when it comes down to it, this is the question we have to address. Are we agreed?

#54 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:22 PM

I agree. But then anyone who believes in God fits this model, so I don't think that's a very good argument.

I make it precisely because anyone who believes in God fits this model. I'm not afraid to face the fact that a contributing factor to my believe in God is the natural inclination of humans to attribute certain things to a supernatural force.

#55 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:23 PM

Ok, so when it comes down to it, this is the question we have to address. Are we agreed?


Hmm, I can't let you away that easily. I would prefer to say it is one of the questions we have to address! Yes, I agree.

#56 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:25 PM

Hmm, I can't let you away that easily. I would prefer to say it is one of the questions we have to address! Yes, I agree.

Hee hee... actually, all things considered I think it is the key question. We have to consider how the preachers of the gospel were going to overcome the tension between the Old Testament on this issue, and the gospel records! :clap2:

#57 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:26 PM

Related question - how does God prove in the Old Testament that He is the only God, as He claims? :popcorn:

#58 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:30 PM

By showing the impotency of the gods of the other nations.

#59 Fortigurn

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:32 PM

By showing the impotency of the gods of the other nations.

Oooooh, killah point! :eek:

And this is convincing, yes?

#60 Grace

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:46 PM

Now I know this is annoyingly off-topic for you, but you haven't give me a decent answer:

I make it precisely because anyone who believes in God fits this model. I'm not afraid to face the fact that a contributing factor to my believe in God is the natural inclination of humans to attribute certain things to a supernatural force.


I still think your argument is full of holes. There is reason today to not believe in demons; science and medicine I think prove that demons were merely a cultural explanation for unexplainable illnesses. So people are approaching the Bible with this mindset, not the other way round. To believe in demons is in effect to open yourself up to ridicule; more so than a belief in God, which, as you said, is entrenched in the human psyche. To believe in demons casts an archaic perspective on church beliefs; yet many/most people who approach the Bible honestly seeking truth still believe that it teaches the existence of demons. So as I said before, Paul's argument wasn't very comprehensive.

Maybe this topic should be moved to another thread (ie the demons/sickness thread).....

Edited by Grace, 04 October 2003 - 09:25 PM.





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