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Inspiration And Exegesis


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#221 kabowdanan

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 12:43 AM

Ahhh ok, I think i've bumped into it.

Good to know someone is making an effort to tackle the guy :argue: :smited: :fence:

Has he actually amended any of what he has to say about our faith?

#222 Fortigurn

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 01:01 AM

Has he actually amended any of what he has to say about our faith?

No. It's like talking to a brick wall - no answers. :wall:

#223 kabowdanan

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 06:25 AM

Has he actually amended any of what he has to say about our faith?

No. It's like talking to a brick wall - no answers. :wall:

I guess that is to be expected... :rolleyes:

do we have our answers online and well advertised? :book:

#224 Evangelion

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 06:29 AM

do we have our answers online and well advertised? :book:


The answer is "Yes" to both questions. :yep:

Our answers are publicly displayed in the Armoury and I know for a fact that they have been read by many CARMites - perhaps even by Slick himself. :book:
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#225 kabowdanan

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Posted 08 November 2003 - 06:31 AM

Groovy :phat: :thumbsup:

#226 Grace

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Posted 10 November 2003 - 04:16 PM

You're right that it is an argument from silence in the sense that if something is not commented on either positively or negatively that doesn't prove or disprove anything about it

However Ev is saying that if it's not there why believe it, which is not the same as saying if it's not there believe it anyway.


I'm also pointing out that it is commented on - and in unmistakably negative terms, too. :book:

This has to be addressed at some stage. :popcorn:

I commented on it. My post said this:

QUOTE from Ev

We also have the fact that although people believed in demons, the apostle Paul specifically denied their existence and exhorted others to do the same. If we were to accept that Jesus' relative silence on the issue was proof that they do exist, how then can we explain Paul's words?




I'd like to probe the "demons=gods" argument as there seem to be some inconsistencies:

Firstly, the meaning of daimonion from Thayers is:

daimoniōn

1) The divine power, deity, divinity.

2) A spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men.

3) Evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil.

In your expose on demons, you said the following:


QUOTE from Ev

Notice that although (1) & (2) are perfectly legitimate,mainstream Christains have a tendency to view (3) as the primary definition. That is why, before we approach the Biblical use of the word daimonion, we need to appreciate the socio-historical context of the 1st Century AD. 




Don't you, in your argument, engage the very same tendency that you accuse mainstream Christians of? That is, seizing on two definitions and excluding the third completely? The whole force of your argument expressly lies in daimonion always meaning 'The divine power, deity, divinity'; and 'A spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men'.

However, as Thayer's Lexicon points out, daimonion can also mean 'evil spirits or the messengers and minister of the devil'. In fact, this definition has support from Scripture, when daimonion is used interchangeably with 'evil spirit'. See Here for an excellent post from itinerant on this topic.

If this wasn't the case, the argument from Corinthians might have some merit; however, as we can see, daimonion has a somewhat flexible meaning. As I said previously in this thread, the letters to the Corinthians is specifically to Gentile believers who came from a background of idol-worship, and who had previously held the belief that idols were real; that there really was a 'god' or 'divine spirit' behind the idols. The context is specifically talking about idols, so therefore we can safely assume that the daimonion here can be defined by Thayer's first two definitions. The same cannot be said for the daimonion of the Gospels.



#227 Grace

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 08:53 PM

:popcorn:

#228 Fortigurn

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 08:55 PM

Interestingly, the early Christian Fathers used this term predominantly of 'gods' or of men who had died and been apotheosized. :book:

#229 Grace

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 09:44 PM

Yes. In some cases.

"The angels transgressed this appointment and were captivated by love of women. And they begat children, who are those called demons."
- Justin Martyr (c. 110-165 AD)

"The poets and mythologists did not know that it was the [wicked] angels, and those demons who had been begotten by them…For they called them by whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and to his children."
- Justin Martyr (c. 110-165 AD)

CHAP. VI. --THE ANGELS AND THE CREATOR OF THE WORLD COULD NOT HAVE BEEN IGNORANT OF THE SUPREME GOD. By calling upon Him, even before the coming of our Lord, men were saved both from most wicked spirits, and from all kinds of demons, and from every sort of apostate power. This was the case, not as if earthly spirits or demons had seen Him, but because they knew of the existence of Him who is God over all, at whose invocation they trembled, as there does tremble every creature, and principality, and power, and every being endowed with energy under His government.
- Ireneaus (120-202 AD, disciple of Polycarp, the disciple of John the Apostle)

(Angels distinguished from demons:)
CHAP. VI.--EXPLANATION OF THE WORDS OF CHRIST, "NO MAN KNOWETH THE FATHER, BUT THE SON," ETC.; WHICH WORDS THE HERETICS MISINTERPRET. pROOF THAT, BY THE FATHER REVEALING THE SON, AND BY THE SON BEING REVEALED, THE FATHER WAS NEVER UNKNOWN. …while He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons, from the enemy, and last of all, from death itself.
- Ireneaus (120-202 AD, disciple of Polycarp, the disciple of John the Apostle)

"Furthermore, we are instructed by our sacred books how from certain angels, who fell of their own free will, there sprang a more wicked demon brood, condemned of God along with the authors of their race…Their great business is the ruin of mankind. So, from the start, spiritual wickedness sought our destruction.
- Tertullian (approx. 197 AD)

"These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, who are the demons who wander about the world, perform similar actions."
- Athenagoras (approximately 175 AD)

"From the seed [of the fallen angels and women], giants are said to have been born. By them, arts were made known in the earth. They taught the dyeing of wool and everything that is done. When they died, men erected images to them. Yet, because they were of an evil seed, the Almighty did not approve of their being brought back from death when they had died. For that reason, they wander and they now subvert many bodies. And it is these whom you [pagans] presently worship and pray to as gods."
- Commodianus (approx. 240 AD)

Enoch, Chapter 19 - 1 And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, (here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in 2 which they shall be judged till they are made an end of.

Enoch, Chapter 99 - 7 And again I swear to you, ye sinners, that sin is prepared for a day of unceasing bloodshed. And they who worship stones, and grave images of gold and silver and wood (and stone) and clay, and those who worship impure spirits and demons, and all kinds of idols not according to knowledge, shall get no manner of help from them.

CHAP. II.--IGNATIUS IS CONDEMNED BY TRAJAN. For Trajan…threatening them with persecution unless they should agree to(6) worship daemons, as did all other nations, thus compelled(7) all who were living godly lives either to sacrifice [to idols] or die…Thou art in error when thou callest the daemons of the nations gods.
- Ignatius (30-107 AD, disciple of John the Apostle)

CHAP. V.--CHRISTIANS CHARGED WITH ATHEISM. - For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves… not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself…we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, (2) but assert that they are wicked and impious demons
- Justin Martyr (c. 110-165 AD)

CHAP. IX.--FOLLY OF IDOL, WORSHIP. And neither do we honour with many sacrifices and garlands of flowers such deities as men have formed and set in shrines and called gods… but have the names and forms of those wicked demons which have appeared.
- Justin Martyr (c. 110-165 AD)

CHAP. XII. --DOCTRINE OF THE REST OF THE APOSTLES For, as they did not speak to the Gentiles in compliance with their notions, but told them with boldness that their gods were no gods, but the idols of demons;
- Ireneaus (120-202 AD, disciple of Polycarp, the disciple of John the Apostle)

"From the seed [of the fallen angels and women], giants are said to have been born. By them, arts were made known in the earth. They taught the dyeing of wool and everything that is done. When they died, men erected images to them. Yet, because they were of an evil seed, the Almighty did not approve of their being brought back from death when they had died. For that reason, they wander and they now subvert many bodies. And it is these whom you [pagans] presently worship and pray to as gods."
- Commodianus (approx. 240 AD)

Source Here

#230 Fortigurn

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 09:57 PM

Yes. In some cases.

Almost every case you cited there, in fact. :book:

#231 Grace

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 10:19 PM

The early church fathers also believed that demons were real, existent evil spirits. In every case that I quoted.

#232 Fortigurn

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 10:28 PM

The early church fathers also believed that demons were real, existent evil spirits.  In every case that I quoted.

No, not merely 'evil spirits'. Gods. G. O. D. S. In almost every case, except for the exceptions, in which they are:
  • Fallen angels (Scripture denies that angels can fall)

  • The spawn of angels and mortals (any Scriptural support for this would be gratefully received)

Edited by Fortigurn, 22 December 2003 - 10:29 PM.


#233 Fortigurn

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 10:56 PM

What we have above is the attempts of the early Christian apologists to explain to the heathen where their gods came from.

The early Christians did not try to deny that these gods existed. What they attempted to do was offer an explanation for their origin. They attempted to convince the heathen that these were divine beings who had fallen from grace (fallen angels), or the spawn of such fallen angels and mortals.

Thus:

"The poets and mythologists did not know that it was the [wicked] angels, and those demons who had been begotten by them…For they called them by whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and to his children."

- Justin Martyr (c. 110-165 AD)


Again:

"These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, who are the demons who wander about the world, perform similar actions."

- Athenagoras (approximately 175 AD)


Again:

"From the seed [of the fallen angels and women], giants are said to have been born. By them, arts were made known in the earth. They taught the dyeing of wool and everything that is done. When they died, men erected images to them. Yet, because they were of an evil seed, the Almighty did not approve of their being brought back from death when they had died. For that reason, they wander and they now subvert many bodies.

And it is these whom you [pagans] presently worship and pray to as gods."

- Commodianus (approx. 240 AD)


Again:

CHAP. II.--IGNATIUS IS CONDEMNED BY TRAJAN. For Trajan…threatening them with persecution unless they should agree to(6) worship daemons, as did all other nations, thus compelled(7) all who were living godly lives either to sacrifice [to idols] or die…Thou art in error when thou callest the daemons of the nations gods.

- Ignatius (30-107 AD, disciple of John the Apostle)


Again:

CHAP. V.--CHRISTIANS CHARGED WITH ATHEISM. - For the truth shall be spoken; since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves… not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods, and gave to each the name which each of the demons chose for himself…

we not only deny that they who did such things as these are gods, (2) but assert that they are wicked and impious demons.

- Justin Martyr (c. 110-165 AD)


Again:

CHAP. XII. --DOCTRINE OF THE REST OF THE APOSTLES For, as they did not speak to the Gentiles in compliance with their notions, but told them with boldness that their gods were no gods, but the idols of demons;

- Ireneaus (120-202 AD, disciple of Polycarp, the disciple of John the Apostle)


Again:

"From the seed [of the fallen angels and women], giants are said to have been born. By them, arts were made known in the earth. They taught the dyeing of wool and everything that is done. When they died, men erected images to them. Yet, because they were of an evil seed, the Almighty did not approve of their being brought back from death when they had died. For that reason, they wander and they now subvert many bodies.

And it is these whom you [pagans] presently worship and pray to as gods."

- Commodianus (approx. 240 AD)


In their efforts to convince the pagans that their 'gods' were really fallen angels (or their spawn), they forgot that the Hebrew Old Testament actually refers to the pagan deities as elohim (gods), and that the LXX refers to them as daimoniois(demons).

In every case, however, it's clear that they knew that the word 'daimonion' referred - as far as the pagans were concerned - to gods.

They could have used Revelation to make the point even stronger. :book:

Edited by Fortigurn, 23 December 2003 - 12:13 AM.


#234 Fortigurn

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 11:38 PM

What gets even more bizarre, is when the later Christian Fathers started appealing to alleged supernatural acts as evidence of the apotheosis of noble Christians - whom they called 'saints'.

Anyone want to guess what the word was which they used to describe these saints? Yes, that's right, they called them daimoniois.

#235 Fork_*

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 12:14 AM

I just noticed this thread, and went through the nine pages. I wonder if the smileys reduce the signal to noise.

In summary, was it decided that there is evidence that the disciples, and the writer of James, Acts, etc. were doctrinally correct in regards to demons, without resorting to circular logic?

#236 Fortigurn

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 12:16 AM

I just noticed this thread, and went through the nine pages. I wonder if the smileys reduce the signal to noise.

In summary, was it decided that there is evidence that the disciples, and the writer of James, Acts, etc. were doctrinally correct in regards to demons, without resorting to circular logic?

I think that depends on who you ask. The issue here is the denial of their existence in the epistles, but their apparent tolerance in the gospels.

Perhaps you'd like to evaluate the evidence yourself, and tell me what you think. :book:

#237 Fortigurn

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 12:23 AM

Source Here

That's certainly an astonishing site you've come up with Grace. They appear to be repeating the incredible error of the Early Fathers that demons are fallen angels, or their spawn. :eek:

Yet again, we see modern Christians attempting desparately to solve a key problem - if 'demons' and 'devils' and 'evil spirits' are what they claim they are, then where did they come from, and why do we find them absolutely nowhere in the Old Testament?

The solution for these people is to head for the apostate Jewish literature, and start making things up. Fascinating. :book:

And they're all at sea on prophecy, let me just say. :boat:

#238 Fork_*

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 12:44 AM

I just noticed this thread, and went through the nine pages. I wonder if the smileys reduce the signal to noise.

In summary, was it decided that there is evidence that the disciples, and the writer of James, Acts, etc. were doctrinally correct in regards to demons, without resorting to circular logic?

I think that depends on who you ask. The issue here is the denial of their existence in the epistles, but their apparent tolerance in the gospels.

Perhaps you'd like to evaluate the evidence yourself, and tell me what you think. :book:

Firstly, I don't think its open to interpretation that demons exist- there is sufficient biblical evidence to prove they do not.

As far as I can tell, the apparent belief of demons in the gospels is open to interpretation. Given that this is the Lycaeum, I'm not sure we should be debating the subject.




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