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#41 Greb

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:49 AM

Satan in the book of Job, and throughout the Bible, is opposing God - he is primarily God's opponent, and by extension Job's.


Both God and Satan test David to call a census
Both God and Satan test Job
Satan asks God permission to sift an apostle in the NT

This all looks like they are working together to me.


God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13) but he does permit temptation to occur because it is necessary (Matt 18:7).

God does 'test' us by trial (Psa 66:10) so therefore 'testing' is different to 'tempting'.

#42 Evangelion

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:36 AM

Well said, Greb.

:)
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#43 Greb

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:44 AM

Satan asks God permission to sift an apostle in the NT


That one almost exclusivly demonstrates we are talking about a testing angel.


I probably won't change your mind but just to explain the way I understand this.

The apostles, including Peter, are about to undergo trial which will test and ultimately refine their faith. God may cause trial or he may allow it to come from another source such as persecution.

During this trial the apostles would no doubt be subject to temptations, eg to desert Jesus, to run away, which arise not from God but from their own desires (James 1:14). Satan will be at work both in the minds of those persecuting Jesus & the apostles, and in the apostles' own minds - their desires which tempt them to sin. Jesus prays that Peter's faith will not be completely overthrown by satan, which it wasn't, and tells Peter, once he has recovered from his temporary lapse, to use his experience to strengthen his brothers, which Peter did as the letters 1 & 2 Peter are all about endurance under trial.

#44 Mercia2

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 01:51 PM

God does all of these things, in response to the accusations of the satan.


God does not test or sin in first principles, the Bible says so. That includes acts via a holy angel, in His image, hence when an angel speaks to Moses it is both God and an angel, we are told. But for a testing angel like being NOT in Gods image, well that is how He gets around that seeming paradox, it seems.

Edit: if evil done for overall good is overall for the good it is not sin.

There is no literal Satan beyond a visual cultural reference point used in visions as a personification concept. This has been confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Well done Christadelphians!


Edited by Mercia2, 15 May 2012 - 10:18 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#45 Juliashmoolia

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 01:09 AM


Satan in the book of Job, and throughout the Bible, is opposing God - he is primarily God's opponent, and by extension Job's.


Both God and Satan test David to call a census
Both God and Satan test Job
Satan asks God permission to sift an apostle in the NT

This all looks like they are working together to me.


God does not tempt anyone (James 1:13) but he does permit temptation to occur because it is necessary (Matt 18:7).

God does 'test' us by trial (Psa 66:10) so therefore 'testing' is different to 'tempting'.


Why does God want to test someone? According to the bible, God knows all things, even before they happen. The reason a teacher tests the students learning and knowledge is because the teacher does know that students level of learning and knowledge. The purpose of the test is to find that out. If God already knows everything about us, why does he need to test us?
Facebook group for ex-christadelphians: http://www.facebook....hristadelphians


NIHIL CURO DE ISTA TUA STULTA SUPERSTITIONE

#46 Evangelion

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 01:52 AM

Testing is for us, not for Him.
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#47 Mercia2

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:15 AM

Testing is for us, not for Him.

thats right
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#48 Greb

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 05:32 PM

Testing is for us, not for Him.


Rom 5:3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
Rom 5:4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,

Jas 1:2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,
Jas 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness (power of endurance).
Jas 1:4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

I should add that I do not believe that all suffering experienced on earth is God 'testing' people.

#49 Evangelion

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:08 PM

Well said.

:)
'Abba Antony said, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'"'

Ward, Benedicta. The Sayings of the Desert Fathers (2006), Antony 25, p. 5.

Credo.

#50 Greb

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 06:57 PM

The raven in that parable/allegory is Satan.


I have been doing a little more work on what birds such as the raven and dove represent.

Birds were created on the fifth day along with fish and therefore I believe they are going to be similar in what they represent - people.

In the story of the flood and in the Law of Moses, there are two types of birds - clean and unclean. Clean birds are herbivorous whilst unclean birds are generally meat eaters and scavengers. Clean birds could be eaten but not unclean birds. This led to clean animals being used to symbolize Israelites (holy), and unclean animals to symbolize Gentiles (Acts 11:6-9). In 1 Kings 17:4 ravens fed Elijah, shortly before he was sent to a Gentile widow at Sidon to be fed. We are told several times that God provides food for the ravens - Job 38:41, Psa 147:9, Luke 12:24 - just as we are told that he sends the sun and rain to both the just and unjust (Matthew 5:45).

As Elijah was taught so is Peter - that 'cleanness' or 'uncleanness' is a matter of the heart (Romans 2:29). What God had cleansed (a Gentile Cornelius) he was not to call unclean (Acts 10:28).

Therefore, in Christ, clean and unclean birds represent not only Jew or Gentile, but also two different types of spirit or attitude, those with a Christlike spirit or those with an un-Christlike spirit.

Birds of prey such as ravens, vultures and eagles in those days were strong, numerous, fierce and bold as there was little defense against them. Birds such as ravens were very cunning. Birds as scavengers of dead bodies are mentioned in Gen 15:11, Jer 7:33, Jer 15:3, Matt 24:28 and Prov 30:17.

Herbivorous birds such as doves, quails and pigeons are a symbol of innocence, harmlessness and vulnerability (Jer 5:27, Lam 3:52, Ezek 13:20, 17:23, Hos 7:11, 11:11, Matt 6:26, Matt 10:16, Prov 1:17). These birds were good for food and were easily trapped in nets and snares (Psa 91:3, Psa 124:7, Jer 5:26).

In Rev 18:2 unclean spirits which Babylon is full of are like unclean birds. The Holy Spirit is like a clean bird – a dove.

An unclean spirit (Matt 12:43) can be a spirit of unbelief – refusing to believe in spite of being shown proof (Heb 3:12). In 1 Tim 4:1 'deceitful spirits' are those false teachers teaching error. In 1 John 4:3–6 the spirit of the antichrist does not confess Jesus, and the spirit of truth is compared to the spirit of error.

In the parable of the sower, the birds ate the seed that fell on the pathway. This is the spirit of error or unbelief eating up the word of truth.

The eagle is used widely throughout the Bible as a symbol of swiftness, as well as care for its young. It is one of the faces of the cherubim (Ezekiel 1:10) therefore one of the facets of God's character. In Isa 46:11 Cyrus is described as a bird of prey because of his swiftness when attacking Israel. In Isa 11:14 Israel are described as swooping down on the Philistines. So the symbol of the eagle does not necessarily equal evil, it represents certain qualities such as swiftness and fierceness, which can be used for good or bad, and which God and his saints must sometimes use if they are to combat evil.

In Revelation 19:17 God's angel calls the birds to gather for the great supper of God. Note that in this case the birds are God's allies. As such I think they represent converted Gentiles/nations who bring their military resources to help carry out God's judgements on the beast and false prophet (Rev 19:21). See also Ezekiel 39:17-20 where birds of all sorts are eating at God's table - seems unlikely this would be the devil's angels?

Interested to see what you think.

#51 daysha

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:04 AM

Well said.

:)

:yep: Testing helps us grow and mature spiritually to become more like Jesus.
It hurts at the time, but God wants us to respond in faith and love to it.
He'll help us get through things if we lean on Him.
:)
Do all to the glory of God. Read His word prayerfully, think about it, meditate upon it and do.

#52 Mercia2

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:45 PM

As Elijah was taught so is Peter - that 'cleanness' or 'uncleanness' is a matter of the heart (Romans 2:29). What God had cleansed (a Gentile Cornelius) he was not to call unclean (Acts 10:28).

Therefore, in Christ, clean and unclean birds represent not only Jew or Gentile, but also two different types of spirit or attitude, those with a Christlike spirit or those with an un-Christlike spirit.


Hi, yes they corrospond to all of that, just as Christ corrosponds to everything said about the spiritual man, but as with Christ, what is real is used to represent all that corrosponds to their character, which is this consistant duality we see through the Bible with the natural man and the spiritual man, esau and jacob, abel and cain, Jesus and Satan. The Bible uses the symbol for birds directly for angels, and the Holy Spirit, which the Bible elsewhere also calls an angel. What you are describing are their characteristics, whether holy or demonic. That is reductionism, it is reducing the normal two level of understanding down to one, it is what many modern minds do alot when dealing with what appears to be a personality in relation to Satan or the devil by reducing down to the meaning. Yes it is true that wisdom is personified in the feminine and so is Israel, a nation, God does use personfication for charcteristics and nations, which are the same as characteristics, Israel is called a her for example, but never for a Biblical character. Tell me one other Biblical character or personality in the OT who is an allegory in him/herself and does not actually exist.

You presumably accept their are many examples in which the symbol of a bird has been applied to angels and one example of Jesus plainly stating this? He says the birds in the parable symbolise the angels so as He does not say a specific bird then I have to interptet all variations of birds as variations of angels.

Birds of prey such as ravens, vultures and eagles in those days were strong, numerous, fierce and bold as there was little defense against them. Birds such as ravens were very cunning. Birds as scavengers of dead bodies are mentioned in Gen 15:11, Jer 7:33, Jer 15:3, Matt 24:28 and Prov 30:17.


Yes but this goes back to the debate again similar to the Genesis creation account debate, i.e is God making seemingly pointless gorey literalist statements about ravens and vultures eating the dead or is their some sort of symbolic meaning going on that has nothing to do with literal birds eating literal dead bodies, I am in the latter camp.

Remember, the dove in the Noah parable represents the Holy Spirit, this is a real being identified in the Bible as an angel, atleast in one place specifically, it is not an abstract characteristic in itself, so likewise the raven also HAS to be a real entity and cannot JUST be an abstract or a characteristic.

Herbivorous birds such as doves, quails and pigeons are a symbol of innocence, harmlessness and vulnerability (Jer 5:27, Lam 3:52, Ezek 13:20, 17:23, Hos 7:11, 11:11, Matt 6:26, Matt 10:16, Prov 1:17). These birds were good for food and were easily trapped in nets and snares (Psa 91:3, Psa 124:7, Jer 5:26).

In Rev 18:2 unclean spirits which Babylon is full of are like unclean birds. The Holy Spirit is like a clean bird – a dove.


Yes all good, but do not forget you are describing characteristics again with all of the above apart from the last line I put in bold, because that is a reminder that a bird symbol, the dove, is applied to the Holy Spirit, which we know is not just a charachteristic but a real divine being, described as an angel in the Bible in one place but ALSO manifesting those characteristics of those innocent birds. So then what are the foul and detestable birds attracted to organised religion/babylon in that prophecy? they are called foul spirits, and in opposition we know the Holy Spirit is a spirit, not just a mindset but a spirit in the sense of a supernatural literal spirit being.

I should add that i do not believe the symbol of birds are applied to angels because they fly around, but because as with the eagle (used in the Bible also as a symbol for the Holy Spirit) has great perception, and soars high above the earth spiritually speaking, close to heaven. So likewise the dove, because the Holy Spirit is innocent etc, all christlike characteristics of the Divine Image.

Edited by Mercia2, 21 April 2011 - 07:24 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#53 Mercia2

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:52 PM

Birds were created on the fifth day along with fish and therefore I believe they are going to be similar in what they represent - people.


Yes I think they represent a type of people who are destined to be "like the angels" and as God speaks in future tense He already applies the angel symbol of birds to them, on the fifth day in the Creation story they were created, this is highly significant because on the fourth day we have a prophecy of Christs coming, the sun was created, so the day after that the first angels/birds were created.

this is good stuff...

In the story of the flood and in the Law of Moses, there are two types of birds - clean and unclean. Clean birds are herbivorous whilst unclean birds are generally meat eaters and scavengers. Clean birds could be eaten but not unclean birds. This led to clean animals being used to symbolize Israelites (holy), and unclean animals to symbolize Gentiles (Acts 11:6-9). In 1 Kings 17:4 ravens fed Elijah, shortly before he was sent to a Gentile widow at Sidon to be fed. We are told several times that God provides food for the ravens - Job 38:41, Psa 147:9, Luke 12:24 - just as we are told that he sends the sun and rain to both the just and unjust (Matthew 5:45).


I think that is excellent. The ravens that fed Elijah and that God gives food to ravens I have alwaya thought had massive theological significance. what I concluded from that, as Elijah had a symbolic meaning in relation to representing Gods Word, and that Elijah was fed by ravens and yet God feeds the ravens as God actually used Satan to write parts of the OT, perhaps in the literal sense, I am still trying to work this riddle out. We know that the concept of God feeding is with His words, and here He sent a symbolic raven to feed Elijah the symbol of Gods Word, "the chariot of Israel". Very curious.

Therefore, in Christ, clean and unclean birds represent not only Jew or Gentile, but also two different types of spirit or attitude, those with a Christlike spirit or those with an un-Christlike spirit.


Yes without doubt, but remember they are just characteristics of the duality again between the two types, remember the two types are not just types in themselves but also REPRESENTED by real people, like Jesus and His opposite, Satan. His opposite in the duality of two natures has to be represented by someone real, that is the consistant biblical pattern, cain and abel, esau and jacob, etc etc all represent the natural man vs the spiritual man, or following the Divine will or not following the Divine Will, so likewise we then come to Jesus, and His opposite to represent not following the Divine will cannot just be a charateristic, like a sinful mind, that would be selective theological reductionism, so also HAS to be like all the other examples be represented by His dual opposite, Satan, who cannot just be a characteristic but rather also a real specific character but also representing those opposite characteristics. That is why I have always said the Christadelphians are right on one level of understanding (characteristics), but one mode alone does not apply in any other example but rather real specific fixed characters are used.

In 1 Tim 4:1 'deceitful spirits' are those false teachers teaching error. In 1 John 4:3–6 the spirit of the antichrist does not confess Jesus, and the spirit of truth is compared to the spirit of error.


I used to interpret it like that as well, but then who are riders of the horses in the Revelation? I know it is a prophecy about Chritian teachers/horses, going into spiritual battle in the Christian prophetic age (horse symbolism - see my article here - http://wiki.answers....e#ixzz1K0LLUt00

So knowing as I do 100% that the horses in the Revelation with riders controlling them are the teachers of Babylon/Chriatendom, than I am forced to conclude their riders influencing them really are demons because those who are saved are also Gods battle horses but our reigns are steered by our ministering angel, thats what influences those not in Babylon/organised Christianity.

I can promise you I did not want to reach this almost bizzare supernatural conclusion, but it is where the evidence takes me and the more I look the more it seems to be confirmed. So in this context these words take on a two layered meaning, i.e just as their is a horse (1) and a rider (2), the rider influences the horse, so our minstering spirit influences us but demons influence most who claim to be Christian, now this verse takes on a non reductionist meaning...

In 1 Tim 4:1 'deceitful spirits' are those false teachers teaching error. In 1 John 4:3–6 the spirit of the antichrist does not confess Jesus, and the spirit of truth is compared to the spirit of error.


In your quote above you make it look as if the seducing spirit is the teacher, but this is what the verse actually says...

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


That above verse is saying exactly what the prophecies say about Christendom in the book of Revelation, that the demonic riders are influencing the horses, or pastors, teachers, bishops, everyone in organised Christianity.

Furthermore the fact Rev 18:2 says exactly the same, that organised Christendom or Babylon attracts the demonic, so I really do believe we are all under influences we do not perceive that attempt to subvert our salvation in a way in which most will never accept or perceive.

I can't say I am particularily happy about being born into an existance like that but that is what I believe to be an honest interpretation of the Scriptural evidence of the state of reality and I am just going to have to conclude I have not yet fully understood why.


The eagle is used widely throughout the Bible as a symbol of swiftness, as well as care for its young. It is one of the faces of the cherubim (Ezekiel 1:10) therefore one of the facets of God's character. In Isa 46:11 Cyrus is described as a bird of prey because of his swiftness when attacking Israel. In Isa 11:14 Israel are described as swooping down on the Philistines. So the symbol of the eagle does not necessarily equal evil, it represents certain qualities such as swiftness and fierceness, which can be used for good or bad, and which God and his saints must sometimes use if they are to combat evil.


Yes charachteristics again. You said characteristics of God, but infact the eagle is described as Holy Spirit which led the Israelites out of Egypt, again same as Jesus and God on that level, all characteristics of the same charachter/image.

So the symbol of the eagle does not necessarily equal evil, it represents certain qualities such as swiftness and fierceness, which can be used for good or bad, and which God and his saints must sometimes use if they are to combat evil.


I would just say that the eagle is used to describe an aspect of the characteristics of the Holy Spirit and those of that character, I would not say in the context of fierceness, as that is not part of the fruits of the spirit, so I would say without doubt the way the eagle flies high above the earth but observes all with great perception.

In Revelation 19:17 God's angel calls the birds to gather for the great supper of God. Note that in this case the birds are God's allies. As such I think they represent converted Gentiles/nations who bring their military resources to help carry out God's judgements on the beast and false prophet (Rev 19:21). See also Ezekiel 39:17-20 where birds of all sorts are eating at God's table - seems unlikely this would be the devil's angels?


In Revelation 8:3 we have an almost identical quote in which the word "bird" is replaced with "angel". So it definately means that angels are being gathered to Gods supper, whether it means holy angel like men as well I presume so? although this is less clear.

Ok, so we are back to the question, on what theological basis can we say in the parable of the raven and the dove that while the dove represents the Holy Spirit and all the characteristics therefore of the fruits of the spirit that the raven represents the opposite characteristics only? When we have real personalities representing the two natures without exception, i.e cain and abel, adam and eve, esau and jacob, all real characters representing the duality. So accepting the dove is the Holy Spirit which is real and a literal entity, but saying the raven is only a characterstic would be like saying Abel was real and represented Gods Spirit (his name has that meaning) but Cain was a non literal character who just represented the characteristics of the sinful mind. Obviously that sort of selective reductionism cannot be applied in isolation to make the raven/personality of Satan or the devil just become a character abstract. In that parable we have this consistant biblical duality again, the dove/spirit, the raven/carnal mind, same as esua/flesh and jacob/spirit, cain/flesh and abel/spirit etc etc etc, in every example real characters represent those dual natures/characteristics, there is no other Biblical example of one being a literal character and the dual opposite being non literal characteristics only. Thats wby you cannot apply Christadelphian spiritualising (selective) reductionist techniques to the character of the devil/Satan in isolation of other examples of duality, neither can we, if we accept the dove in the Holy Spirit then interpret the raven as a set of characteristics only.

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply.
.

.
.

Edited by Mercia2, 22 April 2011 - 01:57 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#54 Greb

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:42 PM

You presumably accept their are many examples in which the symbol of a bird has been applied to angels and one example of Jesus plainly stating this? He says the birds in the parable symbolise the angels so as He does not say a specific bird then I have to interptet all variations of birds as variations of angels.


Can you list some examples of birds and angels being directly linked, and also specify which parable are you referring to as I am not sure? Thanks

#55 Greb

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:49 PM

Ok, so we are back to the question, on what theological basis can we say in the parable of the raven and the dove that while the dove represents the Holy Spirit and all the characteristics therefore of the fruits of the spirit that the raven represents the opposite characteristics only? When we have real personalities representing the two natures without exception, i.e cain and abel, adam and eve, esau and jacob, all real characters representing the duality. So accepting the dove is the Holy Spirit which is real and a literal entity, but saying the raven is only a characterstic would be like saying Abel was real and represented Gods Spirit (his name has that meaning) but Cain was a non literal character who just represented the characteristics of the sinful mind.
.


Well I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a person either so I would say that both the dove and the raven represent 'spirits' in the sense of attitudes or beliefs (James 3:15-18).

#56 Greb

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:19 PM

In Revelation 8:3 we have an almost identical quote in which the word "bird" is replaced with "angel". So it definately means that angels are being gathered to Gods supper, whether it means holy angel like men as well I presume so? although this is less clear.



What quote is Revelation 8:3 similar to? I can't find much similarity.

Did you mean Revelation 8:13 in which some translations say 'angel', some say 'eagle'? I believe (though I'm no expert) that eagle is the word used in the oldest manuscripts. The 'eagle in flight' is one of the four 'living creatures' in Revelation 4:7, which represent the saints - redeemed humans. These 'living creatures' are distinct from angels (Revelation 5:11).

In addition, Revelation 8:2 refers to seven angels with seven trumpets. In Revelation 8:12 we have the fourth angel of seven. Revelation 9:1 describes the fifth angel of the seven. Revelation 8:13 is like an interruption between the fourth and fifth angels - further indication that someone other than an angel is speaking.

Edited by Greb, 22 April 2011 - 05:20 PM.


#57 Mercia2

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:26 PM



The raven in that parable/allegory is Satan.


I have been doing a little more work on what birds such as the raven and dove represent.

Birds were created on the fifth day along with fish and therefore I believe they are going to be similar in what they represent - people.

In the story of the flood and in the Law of Moses, there are two types of birds - clean and unclean. Clean birds are herbivorous whilst unclean birds are generally meat eaters and scavengers. Clean birds could be eaten but not unclean birds. This led to clean animals being used to symbolize Israelites (holy), and unclean animals to symbolize Gentiles (Acts 11:6-9). In 1 Kings 17:4 ravens fed Elijah, shortly before he was sent to a Gentile widow at Sidon to be fed. We are told several times that God provides food for the ravens - Job 38:41, Psa 147:9, Luke 12:24 - just as we are told that he sends the sun and rain to both the just and unjust (Matthew 5:45).

As Elijah was taught so is Peter - that 'cleanness' or 'uncleanness' is a matter of the heart (Romans 2:29). What God had cleansed (a Gentile Cornelius) he was not to call unclean (Acts 10:28).

Therefore, in Christ, clean and unclean birds represent not only Jew or Gentile, but also two different types of spirit or attitude, those with a Christlike spirit or those with an un-Christlike spirit.

Birds of prey such as ravens, vultures and eagles in those days were strong, numerous, fierce and bold as there was little defense against them. Birds such as ravens were very cunning. Birds as scavengers of dead bodies are mentioned in Gen 15:11, Jer 7:33, Jer 15:3, Matt 24:28 and Prov 30:17.

Herbivorous birds such as doves, quails and pigeons are a symbol of innocence, harmlessness and vulnerability (Jer 5:27, Lam 3:52, Ezek 13:20, 17:23, Hos 7:11, 11:11, Matt 6:26, Matt 10:16, Prov 1:17). These birds were good for food and were easily trapped in nets and snares (Psa 91:3, Psa 124:7, Jer 5:26).

In Rev 18:2 unclean spirits which Babylon is full of are like unclean birds. The Holy Spirit is like a clean bird – a dove.

An unclean spirit (Matt 12:43) can be a spirit of unbelief – refusing to believe in spite of being shown proof (Heb 3:12). In 1 Tim 4:1 'deceitful spirits' are those false teachers teaching error. In 1 John 4:3–6 the spirit of the antichrist does not confess Jesus, and the spirit of truth is compared to the spirit of error.

In the parable of the sower, the birds ate the seed that fell on the pathway. This is the spirit of error or unbelief eating up the word of truth.

The eagle is used widely throughout the Bible as a symbol of swiftness, as well as care for its young. It is one of the faces of the cherubim (Ezekiel 1:10) therefore one of the facets of God's character. In Isa 46:11 Cyrus is described as a bird of prey because of his swiftness when attacking Israel. In Isa 11:14 Israel are described as swooping down on the Philistines. So the symbol of the eagle does not necessarily equal evil, it represents certain qualities such as swiftness and fierceness, which can be used for good or bad, and which God and his saints must sometimes use if they are to combat evil.

In Revelation 19:17 God's angel calls the birds to gather for the great supper of God. Note that in this case the birds are God's allies. As such I think they represent converted Gentiles/nations who bring their military resources to help carry out God's judgements on the beast and false prophet (Rev 19:21). See also Ezekiel 39:17-20 where birds of all sorts are eating at God's table - seems unlikely this would be the devil's angels?

Interested to see what you think.



Edit: I renounce my former views. If evil done for overall good is overall for the good it is not evil.

There is no literal Satan beyond a visual cultural reference point used in visions as a personification concept. This has been confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Well done Christadelphians!




The raven in that parable/allegory is Satan.


I have been doing a little more work on what birds such as the raven and dove represent.

Birds were created on the fifth day along with fish and therefore I believe they are going to be similar in what they represent - people.

In the story of the flood and in the Law of Moses, there are two types of birds - clean and unclean. Clean birds are herbivorous whilst unclean birds are generally meat eaters and scavengers. Clean birds could be eaten but not unclean birds. This led to clean animals being used to symbolize Israelites (holy), and unclean animals to symbolize Gentiles (Acts 11:6-9). In 1 Kings 17:4 ravens fed Elijah, shortly before he was sent to a Gentile widow at Sidon to be fed. We are told several times that God provides food for the ravens - Job 38:41, Psa 147:9, Luke 12:24 - just as we are told that he sends the sun and rain to both the just and unjust (Matthew 5:45).

As Elijah was taught so is Peter - that 'cleanness' or 'uncleanness' is a matter of the heart (Romans 2:29). What God had cleansed (a Gentile Cornelius) he was not to call unclean (Acts 10:28).

Therefore, in Christ, clean and unclean birds represent not only Jew or Gentile, but also two different types of spirit or attitude, those with a Christlike spirit or those with an un-Christlike spirit.

Birds of prey such as ravens, vultures and eagles in those days were strong, numerous, fierce and bold as there was little defense against them. Birds such as ravens were very cunning. Birds as scavengers of dead bodies are mentioned in Gen 15:11, Jer 7:33, Jer 15:3, Matt 24:28 and Prov 30:17.

Herbivorous birds such as doves, quails and pigeons are a symbol of innocence, harmlessness and vulnerability (Jer 5:27, Lam 3:52, Ezek 13:20, 17:23, Hos 7:11, 11:11, Matt 6:26, Matt 10:16, Prov 1:17). These birds were good for food and were easily trapped in nets and snares (Psa 91:3, Psa 124:7, Jer 5:26).

In Rev 18:2 unclean spirits which Babylon is full of are like unclean birds. The Holy Spirit is like a clean bird – a dove.

An unclean spirit (Matt 12:43) can be a spirit of unbelief – refusing to believe in spite of being shown proof (Heb 3:12). In 1 Tim 4:1 'deceitful spirits' are those false teachers teaching error. In 1 John 4:3–6 the spirit of the antichrist does not confess Jesus, and the spirit of truth is compared to the spirit of error.

In the parable of the sower, the birds ate the seed that fell on the pathway. This is the spirit of error or unbelief eating up the word of truth.

The eagle is used widely throughout the Bible as a symbol of swiftness, as well as care for its young. It is one of the faces of the cherubim (Ezekiel 1:10) therefore one of the facets of God's character. In Isa 46:11 Cyrus is described as a bird of prey because of his swiftness when attacking Israel. In Isa 11:14 Israel are described as swooping down on the Philistines. So the symbol of the eagle does not necessarily equal evil, it represents certain qualities such as swiftness and fierceness, which can be used for good or bad, and which God and his saints must sometimes use if they are to combat evil.

In Revelation 19:17 God's angel calls the birds to gather for the great supper of God. Note that in this case the birds are God's allies. As such I think they represent converted Gentiles/nations who bring their military resources to help carry out God's judgements on the beast and false prophet (Rev 19:21). See also Ezekiel 39:17-20 where birds of all sorts are eating at God's table - seems unlikely this would be the devil's angels?

Interested to see what you think.

Greb I think you are a genius, apologies for not noticing earlier.
Yes that is a very sound study. I am not sure about your interpretation of them representing the military, I think they represent the spiritual military, i.e priests and pastors and cardinals and popes. That is why in my own vision I could no longer see the cardinals and bishops, just foul and detestable birds. So I think foul birds as evil teachers is the intended meaning. That would also fit with Babylon (the RCC) becoming "the habitation of demons... foul and detestable birds" etc.

Edit 2012: I renounce my former views. If evil done for overall good is overall for the good it is not evil.

There is no literal Satan beyond a visual cultural reference point used in visions as a personification concept. This has been confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Well done Christadelphians!


"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#58 Greb

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:52 AM

Mercia, I am glad we are getting closer to agreement. I was very interested to read a bit about your life in the other thread, you have had some amazing experiences. I am going to look further into the Holy Spirit and angels. I once studied the gift of prophecy in the NT and there is a connection there with the angels, but I need to do more work on it.

#59 daysha

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:01 PM

Luke 17:20–21

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is [1] in your midst.”


'In your midst' is not inside of you.

The Kingdom of God is in the future.

Look all around. The world is not a very nice place under human rule.

Under God's rule there will be a totally different environment.

It will happen after Jesus returns in order to set it up and start things running, so to speak.

Edited by daysha, 21 April 2013 - 08:02 PM.

Do all to the glory of God. Read His word prayerfully, think about it, meditate upon it and do.




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