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#21 Greb_*

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:31 AM

So the Creation account is actually a prophecy and statement of Gods intent/plan that is still unfolding. Gods spiritual evolution of man over roughly a seven thousand year period. But also a picture of each one of our spiritual creation within the scope of our lifetime.

I think the Book of Revelation is like that as well, I am a historicist and I know that organised Christendom and specifically the RCC and papacy are highlighted, but I also believe their is an application that applies to each one of us within the scope of our own lives. I had an armegeddon, personally, and it resulted in God returning to my life. As I say, I know the great harlot is the RCC, but it is also a symbol of the flesh, do not all the abominations in the world come from the flesh, the mind of that is?

It is like you say above...

Mountains represent man’s confidence in his abilities (Isaiah 2:14, 40:4, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Corinthians 10:5). Valleys represent the mind in depressed or bowed down state (Isaiah 40:4, Luke 14:11, Psalm 23:4).


But specifically, God calls Babylon or the government of Babylon, o destroying mountsin, yet spiritually speaking that is because as you say, "Mountains represent man’s confidence in his abilities". So likewise, the great harlot is specifically the RCC, but spiritually, the flesh, or the carnal mind, which is the greatest harlot and is responsible for everyone ever slain on earth and ALL abominations. The RCC is guilty of alot but that last verse is specifically referring to the flesh/the carnal mind as they cannot be responsible for every prophet ever slain, thats the flesh.


I haven't studied Revelation for myself so I won't comment too much on that yet - thought Genesis was a good place to start! However with even a cursory reading of the last chapter of the Bible the similarities and references to the first few chapters of the Bible are evident. It is something I would certainly like to look into, in relation to spiritual creation within the mind.

Edited by Greb, 15 January 2011 - 02:41 AM.


#22 Mercia2

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 04:07 AM

Are we crossing over in our interpretation here. I mentioned 3 'levels of meaning' in my first post. Jesus being like the sun and the redeemed being like stars fits in with the 2nd interpretation - history/prophecy of 7000 yrs. But in the 3rd interpretation (creation of spiritual minds) everything described in Genesis 1 is something that is created within our mind. What do you think the sun, moon and stars represent, within each person's mind/heart?



You are right, I was crossing. Thanks for helping me see that.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#23 Mercia2

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 05:17 AM

I am aware of 3 'levels of meaning' in Genesis 1:
1. Description of the literal creation
2. Symbolic outline of the last 6000 years of history
3. Symbolic description of the creation of a spiritual mind

I would just like to add that it is so refreshing to see such lack of reductionism and yet the main emphasis on the spiritual/metaphoric interpretation of this event.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#24 Greb_*

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 04:43 PM


Are we crossing over in our interpretation here. I mentioned 3 'levels of meaning' in my first post. Jesus being like the sun and the redeemed being like stars fits in with the 2nd interpretation - history/prophecy of 7000 yrs. But in the 3rd interpretation (creation of spiritual minds) everything described in Genesis 1 is something that is created within our mind. What do you think the sun, moon and stars represent, within each person's mind/heart?



You are right, I was crossing. Thanks for helping me see that.


So you don't have any other ideas about what the sun moon and stars might be? This was probably the day I have the most difficulty with. Another theory is that stars could be knowledge of God's principles. But hope seemed to fit in better with love and faith.

#25 Jon

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 07:31 PM


Greb - you may or may not find this helpful.... Create in me


Thank you - sounds like just the sort of thing I am looking for.


I'd recommend it - it's excellent.

#26 Mercia2

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 03:03 PM



Are we crossing over in our interpretation here. I mentioned 3 'levels of meaning' in my first post. Jesus being like the sun and the redeemed being like stars fits in with the 2nd interpretation - history/prophecy of 7000 yrs. But in the 3rd interpretation (creation of spiritual minds) everything described in Genesis 1 is something that is created within our mind. What do you think the sun, moon and stars represent, within each person's mind/heart?



You are right, I was crossing. Thanks for helping me see that.


So you don't have any other ideas about what the sun moon and stars might be? This was probably the day I have the most difficulty with. Another theory is that stars could be knowledge of God's principles. But hope seemed to fit in better with love and faith.


Hi Greb, sorry really busy at work at the moment so slow to reply.
We will certainly find the answer by studying its use in the Bible. I am familiar with a star as representing an angel, or Christ in the book of Revelation as the brightest star. So why does God call angels and Christ, stars? Jesus is also the SUN of righteousness in Malachi, a sun is a star, both produce light, Jesus is the light of the world because He is in Gods image, angels are suns/stars for the same reason, so we know heavenly bodies that produce light refers to their teachings and example. Daniel says we will all be like stars for "leading many to righteouness". We know that the greatest fruit we are to manifest is love and that those who lead many to righteousness are those who are aware and are teaching Gods principles. So both of your theories are right. Christ as the sun is giving us His love and His teachings/Gods principles, and for that reason the stars/sun shine bright, metaphorically speaking. i suppose Gods principles may be more accurate as those principles cover all the aspects of the fruits of the Spirit, of which the greatest is love.





ui

Edited by Mercia2, 17 January 2011 - 03:05 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#27 Mercia2

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 04:21 PM

I am aware of 3 'levels of meaning' in Genesis 1:

By the way, I have some to believe their are three interpretations of prophecy as well in the Bible where previously only two have been accepted.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#28 Mercia2

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 02:17 PM



Are we crossing over in our interpretation here. I mentioned 3 'levels of meaning' in my first post. Jesus being like the sun and the redeemed being like stars fits in with the 2nd interpretation - history/prophecy of 7000 yrs. But in the 3rd interpretation (creation of spiritual minds) everything described in Genesis 1 is something that is created within our mind. What do you think the sun, moon and stars represent, within each person's mind/heart?



You are right, I was crossing. Thanks for helping me see that.


So you don't have any other ideas about what the sun moon and stars might be? This was probably the day I have the most difficulty with. Another theory is that stars could be knowledge of God's principles. But hope seemed to fit in better with love and faith.


Hi, I seem to agree with most of this - http://www.hebroots.com/lul4.html#LUL4
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#29 Greb_*

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 03:49 PM




Are we crossing over in our interpretation here. I mentioned 3 'levels of meaning' in my first post. Jesus being like the sun and the redeemed being like stars fits in with the 2nd interpretation - history/prophecy of 7000 yrs. But in the 3rd interpretation (creation of spiritual minds) everything described in Genesis 1 is something that is created within our mind. What do you think the sun, moon and stars represent, within each person's mind/heart?



You are right, I was crossing. Thanks for helping me see that.


So you don't have any other ideas about what the sun moon and stars might be? This was probably the day I have the most difficulty with. Another theory is that stars could be knowledge of God's principles. But hope seemed to fit in better with love and faith.


Hi, I seem to agree with most of this - http://www.hebroots.com/lul4.html#LUL4


Yes most of that seems to make sense.

Still not sure about the sea being 'the domain of Satan'. Perhaps it is in a mind turned over to selfishness and sin, but then so are all the other components of the creation as well, not just the sea. There are many positive references to the sea in the Bible as well as negative ones - calm seas vs stormy seas. The reason I think sea at the beginning of Genesis 1 represents something good, is because it is the only pre-existing part of the spiritual creation - we don't have any description of God creating the sea, only causing the dry land to rise out of the sea. Yet the sea remains a part of the new spiritual creation in which everything is 'very good'. So this indicates to me there is some pre-existing morality in humans, even before they know about God. Not saying humans are basically good - whether they do what they know is right is another matter. When I see people who don't believe in God, but yet who act morally and compassionately, this just proves to me that God created them as well.

Rom 2:14 Some people naturally obey the Law's commands, even though they don't have the Law.
Rom 2:15 This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart.

Anyway I have also ordered the book 'Create in Me' mentioned above so looking forward to seeing what that has to say.

#30 Mercia2

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 05:39 PM

Still not sure about the sea being 'the domain of Satan'. Perhaps it is in a mind turned over to selfishness and sin, but then so are all the other components of the creation as well, not just the sea. There are many positive references to the sea in the Bible as well as negative ones - calm seas vs stormy seas.


In John 21, the apostles go fishing or trying to win converts from the sea, which is a picture of us trying to win converts from the world or sea of unbelief, the kingdom of Satan/kingdom of the carnal mind. In this story they go fishing alone, and fail to catch any, until Jesus comes and helps them, then they catch many. The contradicting story in Luke is intended to show that God wants unity and precise amount of fish/converts (153) as opposed to a massive amount that then cause the net to break (unity) and when the net breaks they all fall back into the sea, or their previous carnal ideas, and are lost.

Notice the converts or non believers are all in the sea. In Luke the apostles go fishing and begin drowning in the sea, which would be like going onto an atheist message board and ending up getting persuaded by their ideas, that is why Jesus rebukes them and says "Where is your faith?", because if they had more faith they would not have began drowning in those ideas (Luke 8:25).

and God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.


The Bible tells us that God comes with the clouds and we will see Jesus in the clouds of heaven, Genesis 1 talks of two waters, the waters below and above, the waters above meaning the vapour, rain, and the clouds, so the waters above are the higher teachings and the waters below the carnal. That is why it says God comes in the clouds (i.e the waters above) or the higher teachings and ideas. That is why it says God pours out His Spirit upon us like rain. Waters are teachings and waters from above is what we need to give us spiritual life, just as waters of rain that fall from above we need for natural life and growth, so we need the spiritual waters from above to be poured upon us. Note also that the waters that fall from above i.e rain, is what we need for life, but the waters below, or the sea waters are salty and only sustain the life already in them, but would eventually kill life on earth.

I am a Historicist so traditionally I have seen the sea as representing the crowded and troubled old world of Europe which the great harlot/RCC sat upon. But I believe the great harlot also ultimately represents the flesh, because it says of the great harlot that she is responsible for every abomination on earth and only the flesh can be accused of that, and it is ultimately the flesh that goes whoring away from God/the spiritual life. So ultimately the mind of the flesh sits upon a sea of carnal ideas. Therefore I understand the sea to be the carnal mind, or more specifically that great ocean of ideas that exist in the carnal mind. The reason for this is because in the opposite sense we know it has the same meaning, the waters can be healing waters which are the (teachings of Christ) and yet in the opposite sense the waters of Egypt that arise to flood the whole world, are likewise ideas and teachings of the world, Egypt represent the world or the natural man. So the sea to me ultimately represents the teachings and ideas of the carnal mind. Those of us who used to be evil atheists, such as me, were once that great harlot and I sat on many waters or carnal teacings and ideas, forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. Then one day I received a Christadelphian leaflet through my door offering free Bible lessons, and I was a fish being caught from the sea.

So we are fish before we are born again, before we find the Bible and God. So we are living in the sea. The sea or ocean is a dark place, light can only penentrate the surface to a small degree, and the darkest place to be is at the bottom of the sea, the furthest point from light/knowledge of God. So going back to Genesis 1, when it talks about the darknes of the void in the waters, it is really a picture of us on Day 1 of our own spiritual journey to the promised land/mindset we inherit at the end of the week. It also says on Day 1 or the start of our own spiritual creation that the earth was "without form and void", so then ultimately that has to be our spiritual mind, or the potential within us that God can form and mould. So the earth is ultimately Gods domain/the spiritual mind, the sea is Satans domain/the carnal mind. That is also why Revelation 11 says that God will destroy those who destroy the earth, (what God has formed within us), not just the literal earth.

It is also interesting that modern science tells us that life crawled out of the sea upon the earth, which is an allegory in a way of our spiritual evolution accotding to the symbolism God uses in the Bible. The natural world is just a big allegory of the spiritual.

So back to the Historicist understanding of the Beast out of the Sea and the Beast out of the earth, the former represents Roman Catholic ideas (out of the sea) and the Beast out of the Earth is the Protestant movement or earth that God moulded and formed, "Now the earth was formless and empty," yet unfortunately Protestant Christianity has adopted so many Roman Catholic ideas it is now in its image, but God holds the RCC primarily responsible for this corruption (for destroying the earth) or the formerly spiritual minded people of God who had the truth, hence this is said, "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Edited by Mercia2, 20 January 2011 - 05:58 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#31 Greb

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 05:37 AM

Just adding a post script here ... thanks Mercia for your thoughts, I have been thinking about this a lot and can now see that my previous interpretation of the sea was off the mark. From the point of view of Gen 1 as a metaphor for the creation of a spiritual mind, I now see the sea water as being man's wisdom and the land (or the fresh water found on land) as God's wisdom. What convinced me is that there are two things which are part of the created world in Gen 1 which will 'be no more' in the future age:

1. The Sea: Rev 21:1
2. Night: Rev 22:5

Notably, these are also the only two things that existed before God started his creative work - darkness upon the face of the deep.

The sea is described in Job as the home of Leviathon, the most powerful manifestation of human pride (Job 41:34). It is the thrashing of leviathon (human pride) which causes the sea's waves and storms (Job 41:31) which is why they are described as 'proud waves' (Job 38:11). 2 Peter 3:5 refers to the land as coming out of the water but standing in the water. So we have to possess man's wisdom in order to live in the world, but need to maintain a clear distinction between man's wisdom and God's wisdom (as God marked out a boundary for the sea Jer 5:22). God has also set a boundary between light and darkness (Job 26:10).

Ezekiel says that water from the temple in the future age, when it flows into the sea, will turn the salt water into fresh water (Ezekiel 47:8).

Jesus says in John 7:38 "Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'".

Returning to Genesis 1, when spiritual creation happens in our mind, the fresh or life-sustaining water of God's wisdom can flow out into the sea of our mind and our human thinking be influenced by God's thinking. If the opposite happens and our spiritual thinking is influenced by man's wisdom, this is like the sea flooding the earth - Psa 104:9, Psa 69:15.

Hab 2:14 "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea".

#32 Mercia2

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 07:42 AM

Just adding a post script here ... thanks Mercia for your thoughts, I have been thinking about this a lot and can now see that my previous interpretation of the sea was off the mark. From the point of view of Gen 1 as a metaphor for the creation of a spiritual mind, I now see the sea water as being man's wisdom and the land (or the fresh water found on land) as God's wisdom. What convinced me is that there are two things which are part of the created world in Gen 1 which will 'be no more' in the future age:


This is all good stuff Greb, this whole thread.

Lets see if we can get this sort of stuff on a wordpress blog with youtube explanations embedded at the top of google for its relevant search terms and get this message/interpretation out!

Its time to use my daytime work skills to really get such vital information out to as many as possible.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#33 Mercia2

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Posted 02 April 2011 - 11:17 AM

Just adding a post script here ... thanks Mercia for your thoughts, I have been thinking about this a lot and can now see that my previous interpretation of the sea was off the mark. From the point of view of Gen 1 as a metaphor for the creation of a spiritual mind, I now see the sea water as being man's wisdom and the land (or the fresh water found on land) as God's wisdom. What convinced me is that there are two things which are part of the created world in Gen 1 which will 'be no more' in the future age:


Yes, there is no more water, the water is dried up.

"And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro,
until the waters were dried up from off the earth."
(Genesis 8:7)

Satan says he has been walking to and fro upon the earth in the book of Job. The raven in that parable/allegory is Satan.

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then
Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in
the earth
, and from walking up and down in it." (Job 1:7)

It should already be clear who the raven is: Satan! Why is
it that we hear nothing more about the raven in the rest of
the account of Noah's Flood? Because he NEVER returned! Just
as this raven in Genesis has been going to and fro
throughout the Earth until the waters of the Earth are dried
up, Satan too has been walking to and fro throughout the
Earth! This next verse will tie things together very nicely
for you:

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where
the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations,
and tongues." (Revelation 17:15)

When the very last evil people, (or
waters), are destroyed off of the face of the Earth at the
battle of God and Magog, following the Millennial Rule of
Christ, that is when there will a bird fry! The waters,
(people), will be dried up when God sends heavenly fire down
upon them to consume them when they surround the camp of the
Saints; and then Satan, that evil black raven, will be cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone. Only then will this
prophecy from the book of Genesis be completely fulfilled.

"Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters
were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove
found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned
unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of
the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her,
and pulled her in unto him into the ark. And he stayed yet
other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of
the ark; And the dove came in to him in the evening; and,
lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew
that the waters were abated from off the earth. And he
stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which
returned not again unto him any more." (Genesis 8:8-12)

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of
the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he
saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting
upon him:" (Matthew 3:16)

If the dove represents the Spirit of God, what might the
waters represent? Again, comparing Scripture with Scripture,
we find the answer:

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where
the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations,
and tongues." (Revelation 17:15)

The meaning of the Ark itself is a simple one. It represents
the salvation of God:

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as
yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his
house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir
of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7)

The fact that Noah sent out the dove three times is
very significant. The first time is symbolic of God sending
out His Spirit, Jesus, (aka known as YHVH or Jehovah), to
witness to the people of the ancient world:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me,
See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy
brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
(Revelation 19:10)

Those people, (waters), did not receive the testimony of the
Spirit of God, so the Spirit, (Jesus), returned to Him Who
had sent Him. Thus, those people were drowned and did not
receive the salvation of God. Two thousand years ago the
Lord God sent out His Spirit a second time. This time when
the Son, (dove), returned to His Father, (Noah), He had glad
tidings. Just as the dove returned with an olive branch in
its beak, Jesus returned to Heaven having accomplished His
purpose:

"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good
will toward men." (Luke 2:14)
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#34 Greb

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 06:00 PM

Hmmm, I haven't got into the symbolism of the flood yet, still labouring away at Genesis 1 & 2! But very interesting thoughts there. I believe satan in the Bible is a personification of human pride & selfishness, however that would still make sense as the raven. Carnivorous animals represent human lusts causing us to bite and devour one another, herbivorous animals represent the peaceful and gentle effect of God's spirit. More for me to think about there.

#35 Mercia2

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 07:35 AM

Hmmm, I haven't got into the symbolism of the flood yet, still labouring away at Genesis 1 & 2! But very interesting thoughts there. I believe satan in the Bible is a personification of human pride & selfishness,


yes I know you do, but that would be A satan, not THE satan or the devil which is external in both Matt 4 and Job and clearl a prosecuting angel (context). As I said on another thread, the dove represents Gods spirit, so in the same verse what does the raven represent? we can already see bible echoe in what is said about THE satan in the book of Job and the waters drying up in the book of Revelation.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#36 Greb

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:04 PM

Hmmm, I haven't got into the symbolism of the flood yet, still labouring away at Genesis 1 & 2! But very interesting thoughts there. I believe satan in the Bible is a personification of human pride & selfishness,


yes I know you do, but that would be A satan, not THE satan or the devil which is external in both Matt 4 and Job and clearl a prosecuting angel (context). As I said on another thread, the dove represents Gods spirit, so in the same verse what does the raven represent? we can already see bible echoe in what is said about THE satan in the book of Job and the waters drying up in the book of Revelation.


I think Satan as a personification of human pride fits perfectly well in the book of Job (as the pride of his friends) and as the raven.

Satan in the book of Job, and throughout the Bible, is opposing God - he is primarily God's opponent, and by extension Job's.

"This lends a good reason for why the impersonal pronoun (ie the Satan) is used ... Satan can be anything to anyone, provided it is in an opposition role. But when it is God's Satan, it is reasonable to describe the office as THE Satan - THE opponent. Thus although the word Satan in general does not carry a morally perjorative flavour, THE Satan, God's Satan, must necessarily be ungodly in nature, by definition as God's opponent." (J.A. Pople, 'To Speak Well of God - An Exposition of the Book of Job', page 64).



#37 Mercia2

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 03:10 AM

Satan in the book of Job, and throughout the Bible, is opposing God - he is primarily God's opponent, and by extension Job's.


Both God and Satan test David to call a census
Both God and Satan test Job
Satan asks God permission to sift an apostle in the NT

This all looks like they are working together to me.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#38 Mercia2

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:24 AM

I think Satan as a personification of human pride fits perfectly well in the book of Job (as the pride of his friends) and as the raven.


That creates whirlwinds and inflicts boils and God protects Job from by putting a spiritual hedge around Job? That is clearly something EXTERNAL so the internalisation of human pride does not work. A prosecuting testing angel does.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#39 Mercia2

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:26 AM

Satan asks God permission to sift an apostle in the NT


That one almost exclusivly demonstrates we are talking about a testing angel.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#40 Greb

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:28 AM


I think Satan as a personification of human pride fits perfectly well in the book of Job (as the pride of his friends) and as the raven.


That creates whirlwinds and inflicts boils and God protects Job from by putting a spiritual hedge around Job? That is clearly something EXTERNAL so the internalisation of human pride does not work. A prosecuting testing angel does.


God does all of these things, in response to the accusations of the satan.




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