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Historicists - Revelation has a dual fulfillment


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#1 Mercia2

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:33 PM

Historicists - Revelation has a dual fulfillment, 7 prophecies have a dual fulfillment


1. Daniels sealed book of prophecy is the little book delivered "open" in Rev 10:2. In the "time of the end" Dan 12:4.

2. The seven thunders are seven additional prophecies John was about to write but was told not to - there is no need he had already wrote them down.

3. This is why the little book with seven additional thunders we must prophecy again is delivered at the end of trumpet 6 WHERE HISTORICISM ENDS but before trumpet 7 where all prophecy is finished.

4. The traditional Historicist prophetic interpretation still applies (like Hebrew, two levels of understanding not one).

5. The command "prophesy again" is an instruction to the end time true Church and the word "again" denotes a dual application as does the angel telling John not to write these 7 additional prophecies down.

6. This last century was so unique it was always going to speak again.

Observe...

Revelation 10
1And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,


Opened when?

Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


We can interpret that out of context and rather lazily as meaning scientific knowledge increasing in the time of the end if you like, but that is not the context and I cannot see the angel suddenly going off the topic of prophetic knowledge Daniel was asking for and throwing in a random comment about our scientific knowledge inreasing (hardly likely when this is about knowledge of God and prophecy), the context is [prophetic] knowledge that Daniel is pleading for, or knowledge of Gods Word and this is confirmed by the symbolism.


Amos 8:12
they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.


Daniel 12:4
many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased


In other words the instruction at the bottom of Rev 10, chapter, the Little Book is not so much a message to John but is speaking to our generation to proclaim these seven additional thunders/prophecies. "you must prophecy again" = dual fulfillment

And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.



The symbolism of the seven thunders interprets itself....

Rev 10:3-4
and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke.
And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down."
(NIV)

compare...

Amos 3:6-8
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord GOD hath spoken, who can but prophesy?


The dual application of seven prophecies in the Revelation in the time of the end


Little book sealed

Daniel 12

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


The context is prophetic knowledge will increase. When? In the time of the end.

Delivered after trumpet 6 and before trumpet 7 in Rev 10, or approximately around 1860 when most Historicists believe trumpet 6 was fulfilled. Or the period called the time of the end

Little book open

Revelation 10

1And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


The "little book" of Rev 10 is Daniels "sealed book" now open in the "time of the end" in Daniel 12, that we can only understand in the time of the end.

Now tell me this. If the Holy Spirit is not revealing this than how did I come up with this exact same interpretation within seconds of praying that the Holy Spirit help me understand what the little book is and what the seven thunders are and why they are situated between trumpet 6 and the final trump, Please be patient with me here and keep an open mind.

I agree with that interpretation of Trumpet 6 but the problem is that history does not end in 1700.
So whats happened the last 300 years. no wonder John Thomas thought the end was not far back then.This is when America was growing up from the earth in the new world. But now you have had the answer given. In his day he could not see that as soon as this prophecy of trumpet 6 comes to pass in 1700s, the little book is delivered with the instruction to "prophecy again" and an additional 7 thunders/prophecies that John was about to write but was "told not", OBVIOUSLY because they are already written down = DUAL APPLICATION = LAST 300 YEARS.

It is time this is accepted.


Revelation 9

4Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


WHICH ENDED IN 1700

Where is the rest of history? the last 300 years?

Answer is here in next chapter...


and then.....

Revelation 10

1And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.


Which explains the last 300 years and the obvious fact the sea beast is now Catholic europe and earth beast is Protestant America

--------------------------

The beast as microcosm is definately the typological king of Babylon, the popes of Rome (as Historicists believe), but remember the Bible calls all natural man 'beasts'. including the kingdoms of men (macrocosm). Now picture in your mind all the kingdoms of men INSIDE the image of the King of Babylon in the book of Daniel, visualize that image of the king of Babylon with Medo-Persia, Rome Babylon etc INSIDE that image. Now ask yourself, who is the typological King of Babylon? It is the popes of Rome as all Historicists believe. So now what do you see? The kingdoms of men IN the image of the papacy.

Now visualize the former kingdoms of MedoPersia, Babylon etc inside that image in the book of Daniel as the modern symbols for the 4 main current Christian world powers. The lion (UK), the bear (Russia), the leopard (Germany) and the eagle (USA) or the beast out of the earth. The first 3 represent the beast out of the sea or the crowded old world/Europe of "multitudes nations and tongues" (Rev 17:18-2), i.e the lion, leopard and bear, are not these ALSO the national symbols today of the 3 big Christian powers of the old world or "sea"? More coincidence?

Now visualize everything I am about to say in your mind.

Remember prophecy is also typological. So now visualize the image/statue in the book of Daniel of the king of Babylon as the typological king of Mystery Babylon, the pope of Rome (the beast, remember the literal king of babylon became one). Now instead of medo-persia, Babylon etc inside that image/statue, visualize the main current Christian world powers, the lion (UK), the bear (russia), the leopard (Germany), the eagle (USA) inside that image/statue? What do you see? The typological king of mystery Babylon, the pope of Rome (beast) with the modern kingdoms of men in (inside) his image/statue. IN THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST.

Modern nations now in the image of the beast/king of Babylon/papacy


The pope of Rome (beast as microcosm) with the kindom of men in [INSIDE] his image (beast as macrocosm), and there you have it! That is what the book of Revelation means when it says the Christian world is "in the image of the beast"!

The book of Daniel decodes it for us. Beasts in the Bible can be single men (microcosm) or kingdoms of men (macrocosm), both perfectly apply in prophecy as cause (microcosm) and effect (macrocosm). This is also why, I think, the JWs interpret the lion, leopard, bear and eagle as typologically representing today the big 4 Christian nations with those national symbols.

And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.


Like me, they interpret the 7 thunders in Rev 10 and the instruction to "prophesy again" as a dual fulfillment of the book of Revelation in the time of the end which is now speaking to our generations who must proclaim these thunders/prophecies again.

The image of the beast

Now, what is the image of the beast? To manifest the Divine image is to manifest the (character) of Jesus the NT teaches, so to be in the "image of the beast" is the opposite. So what was the character traits of the medievil popes? Research it, they were vile, blasphemous, greedy, gluttonous just like modern man. Revelation 18 describes what motivates him best, not spiritual things but "all that is goodly and dainty" and then we have a long list of products the popes lusted after (see whole context of Rev 18:12-22) he is lusting after, not spiritual things but "merchandise..", again just like modern man. Today we have a word for it, consumerism.

And what did you just visualize? The statue or image of the King of Babylon in the book of Daniel with the kingdoms of men IN that image. Inside it. The typological king of Mystery Babylon is the popes of Rome today and IN his image the former kingdoms of men become the current kingdoms of men, the lion (UK), bear (Russia), leopard (Germany), this is how incredible Gods Word is. Never restrict it. The whole Christian world is IN the image of the beast.

Now if the popes of Rome had 666 in their forehead as they were motivated and imbued by carnal things/materialism. do not also modern man? I think it was Bill Gates who said that normal people today live better than kings of old. 666 in the forehead is a mindset, the thinking of the flesh. While 6 is the number of man, 3 is the number of Gods plan or completeness. So 666 represents mans plan, or mans perfect system of things, consumerism,

To recap

I believe in prophetic Historcism (there are variations of it). I believe the 6 trumpets were fulfilled by the end of the 1800s although the view trumpet 6 is not finished works as well. There is no doubt the trumpet prophecies and Rev 13 had a more symbolic spiritual nterpretation in the Churh era drawing on OT symbolism. I give more weight to the spiritul sense. But we are no longer in the Church era, it ended after the 2300 years. We are in the era of feet of clay, the era of nations. We must wake up to this era having a dual more literal dual application as revealed by where the chapter, little book and seven more thunders is located.

7 additional thunders/prophecies in Rev 10 that John was told to "write not" as they are already written down, and represent another fulfillment of the Book of Revelation prophecies, or dual fulfillment as the "little book" representing Daniels "sealed book" of prophecies now delivered by the angel " open" (Rev 10:2), in the "time of the end" (Dan 12:4)

Which is after the fulfillment of trumpet 6 in the spiritual sense according to the traditional Historicist interpretation around 1860, which is why the little book or Daniels sealed book now "open" with 7 additional prophecies/thunders is delivered after trumpet 6 but before trumpet 7 where prophecy is finished (around 1860 which is when the time of the end begins), is that hese 7 additional thunders/prophecies delivered at this point not only include seeing the modern symbols of the main Christian nations as now representing the lion(uk), bear(Russia) and leopard(Germany) as representing the Beast out of the sea that becomes (Europe) and crowded old world IN the image of the kig of Mystery Babylon, while the only missing symbol in Rev 13 from Daniel 7 is the eagle. So the Beast out of the Earth is the leadng world power before Christ returns represented by an eagle, or Protestant America.

Edited by Mercia2, 11 May 2012 - 09:57 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#2 Mercia2

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:42 PM

Interestingly look at the lion in Daniel 7:1, notice how it says that the eagles wings were "plucked away" from the lion, just as America broke away from the Uk and old world to grow up in the uncrowded new world, "out of the earth", now turn back to Daniel 7, notice in verse 7:4 it says the eagle seperated from the lion to grow up "from the earth" (Dan 7:4) - this is how we know the eagle is the beast out of the earth, all the other symbols emerge from the sea in Daniel 7 and Rev 13. And we know from Rev 17 that the "sea" represents the crowded old world of "multitudes nations and tongues a fitting symbol of crowded Europe.

Daniel 7:4
The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.


All the others come from the sea, who else comes from the earth?

Rev 13:13
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;


Here we see a typological prophecy of the USA (eagle), the most powerful Christian power since the Holy Roman empire, seperating from British rule (lion) to become the worlds leading superpower at the time Jesus comes and destroys the image, which is another reason they have to have a latter day application.

Another reason we know the beasts in Dan 7 and Rev 13 have a latter day fulfillment as national symbols of the four main Christian powers is Daniel 7-9-12 reads as if all will be in existance collectivly when Jesus returns and allowed to keep their national identities for a time in to the Kingdom age...

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



If there is a typological end times fulfillment of the King of Babylon as the popes of Rome. And Historicists believe so. Then their has also be a latter day fulfillment of the kingdoms of men in his image, (inside the statue of the king of Babylon in Daniel) - the kingdoms of men in the image of the beast.

The lion in Daniel 7:1, is shown with eagles wings "plucked away" from the lion, just as America broke away from the Uk and old world to grow up in the uncrowded new world, "out of the earth", now turn back to Daniel 7, notice in verse 7:4 it says the eagle seperated from the lion to grow up "from the earth" (Dan 7:4) - this is how we know the eagle is the beast out of the earth, all the other symbols emerge from the sea in Daniel 7 and Rev 13. And we know from Rev 17 that the "sea" represents the crowded old world of "multitudes nations and tongues a fitting symbol of crowded Europe.

Daniel 7:4
The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.


All the others come from the sea, who else comes from the earth?

Rev 13:13
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;


Here we see a typological prophecy of the USA (eagle), the most powerful Christian power since the Holy Roman empire, seperating from British rule (lion) to become the worlds leading superpower at the time Jesus comes and destroys the image, which is another reason they have to have a latter day application.

Another reason we know the beasts in Dan 7 and Rev 13 have a latter day fulfillment as ational symbols of the four main Christian powers is Daniel 7-9-12 reads as if all will be in existance collectivly when Jesus returns and allowed to keep their national identities for a time in to the Kingdom age...

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.



This can only mean collectivly. They will have a latter day application to the current Christian kingdoms of men when Christ returns. That is the only way it properly reads.

Now remember I was saying all pophecy has dual application, a spiritual fulfillment and a more literal one. And we know that these seven additional thunders/prophecies delivered after trumpet 6, (which is why the 7 additional thunders are delivered in between trumpet 6 and 7) or when trumpet 6 was fulfilled in the traditional Historicist interpretation around 1860, represent a dual fulfillment of seven of the prophecies in the book of Revelation, "in the time of the end", which is what I am expounding. They include the undeniable literal fulfillment of Trumpet 2, one third of world shipping lost in WW2. A third of sea life killed due to pollution according to the WWF and mans worst ever man made disaster, Chernobyl. But while this has a spiritual meaning, it is undeniable that the current world Christian superpower is literally making "fire come down from the sky in full view of men", shock and awe they call it. 3 million dead mainly from ariel bombardment in the Vietnam war, the Catholic south vs the buddhist north. Read Avro Manhattens book about this war, the Vatican were pushing it and using Protestant America to do their bidding. Who started the Balkans war? Read Thy Kingdom come by Robert Hutchinson. The Vatican caused the break up of Yugoslavia by unilaterally recognising Catholic Croatia as as independant state while Vatican money armed the Croatians and Clintom broke the UN arms embargo to get those weapons in. Yet again the Vatican usng Protestant America to their own ends. Yet again the world saw Protestant America do the Vatican and EUs bidding making "fire come down from the sky in full vire of men", bombing schools and hospitals and trains for 70 days. Not to mention, Hiroshma, Nagasaki, the fire storms of Dresden etc, there has never been a time like it. All throughout the south Americas Vatican money working hand in hand with the CIA Armed and supported autocratic right wing regimes. In 1982 when the pope came, the reason I was at at the front in the VIP section is my dad was joint head of security as a igh ranking police firearms officer, security was intense. So guess who my dad worked with iand was briefed as to security threats to the pope? The Italian secret service? the swiss guard? No, the U.S, SIS. Secret Intelligene Service, the pope was their man. Why? Mutual interests. He almost single handedly destroyed communism (as the Catholic Herald boasts). No other world leader could stand infront of thousands of Cubans and tell Castro to drop his marxism. It was Vatican money that funded Polish Solidarnosc, and the fall of communism in Poland caused a domino effet and the 'velvet revolution' everywhere. The Muslims call him 'the capitalist crusade commander in disguise' and they are not wrong.

So lets recap

1. Prophecy has a dual fulfillment, spiritual and more literal
2. The image/character of the medievil popes is the character and lifestyle of modern man today
3. The image of the King of Babylon in the book of Daniel has the Kingdos of men inside that image/statue
4. The King of Babylon became a beast
5. The kingdoms of men inside his image/statue are called "beasts" (Dan 7:23), *in the image of the beast" (Rev 13:14)
6. The typological King of Mystery Babylon is the Popes of Rome wih the current kingdoms of men IN his image
7. The seven thunders we are to "prophesy again", while having a spiritual meaning represent a DUAL fulfillment of 7 prophecies in the book of Revelation in "the time of the end". John was about to write them down (as they are prophecies and thats what he was doing) but was tod by the angel to "write them not", why? Because he had already written them down! They represent the same prophecies having a dual fulfillment in our last unique century.
8. Historicists interpret the papacy as the beast (micrcosm)
9. But beasts are also kingdoms of men (macrocosm)
10. This is how the main 4 modern Christian nations end up IN the image of the beast, who is the typological King of Mystery Babylon, the popes of Rome.

So finally, the mark in its final fulfillment. It is truly the papacys mark as much as it is Protestant America (Beast out of the earth), as both have worked hand in hand to force it upon the world, "he causeth all", it is of course the mark that represents the world systm on earth just before Christ comes that He will abolish. It represents to modern man all that motivates and imbues him, like the medievil popes, all that we live for. It is everywhere, adverts, pop music, countless book, hollywood, countless needless apparal. It is represented by that tree in Eden and the serpent leading us to that tree is like the advertisers. It is a mindset (666 in the forehead), that consumes all modern mans time so he forgets God. Those who work to consume are never satisfied, "there is no rest night and day for those who adore the beast and his image", it is a 24/7 kingdom of the flesh and the thinking of the flesh. This is"the hour of temptation that has come upon all the world to test those who dwell on earth" (Rev 3:10), as to their affections, carnal/materialistic or spiritual? This s the crux of the whole Bible narrative.

And what of the man of sin? Traditionally interpretted as the papacy, does not modern man also set himself up in the temple of God "ye are that temple" and proclaim himself a god, that we made ourselves and blaspheme heaven? Is not the abomination that caseth desolation of Gods spirit not set up in the human mind?

Remember that this century we uniquely have the world Christian superpower making fire come down from the sky in full view of men, well do you REALLY think it is coincidence that the Bible talks of a global, "he causth all" economic sytem, "buy or sell", also has a mark on everything we "buy or sell" that (to human eyes) reads 666? The only unchanging structure of that mark. And represents the whole world system of things, an anti-God kingdom of the flesh just before Christ is due to return? In light of all of the above?


Mary Stewart Relfe, The New Money System 666, 1982

"The Prophet John identified ...System of Commerce 1900 years ago as one in which business would be transacted with a 'Mark' and a Number; the Mark will obviously be a Bar Code; the Number will be '666;' the combination of the two, about which you will read in this book, will be an integral part of the '666 System'. . .

RECEIVING OF ONE'S OWN VOLITION THE MARK (BRAND) IN THE RIGHT HAND OR FOREHEAD; which I believe will be a Bar Code facsimile incorporating a concealed use of '666,' unintelligible to the eye,. . ." Mary Stewart Relfe, The New Money System 666, 1982, pp. xii, 206)

A bizarre coincident? concerning the barcode is the Greek word charagma translated 'mark' in Revelation. Here's how Robert Van Kampen, in The Sign describes this coincident:

"It is interesting to note that the Greek word translated 'mark' is charagma which comes from the Greek word charax, which means 'a palisade, like a picket fence.' When one realizes that this specific word was used back in the first century, and we see today the use of the computer-related bar code, we find the possibilities becoming more than a reality in our day and age." (Robert Van Kampen, The Sign, 1992, p. 231)

Here's the explanation: The Greek "root" word for charagma (translated "mark") is charax. One of the meanings of charax is "a palisade" which is like a "picket fence, or vertical lines". The "idea" is, the reason John used the Greek word charagma, rather than stigma, etc., is because he was describing a 'mark' with vertical lines — a "bar code".

But is all this true?

Well, sort of. . .

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, defines the word charagma as:

5480 charagma, khar'-ag-mah; from the same as 5482 (charax) a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): — graven, mark.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, defines the "root" word charax as:

5482 charax, khar'-az from charasso (to sharpen to a point; akin to 1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, i.e. (by impl.) a palisade or rampant (military mound for circumvallation in a siege):—trench.

Noah Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language (a must have for any serious Bible student!) defines palisade as:

PALISADE, A fence or fortification consisting of a row of stakes or posts sharpened and set firmly in the ground. In fortification, the posts are set two or three inches apart, parallel to the parapet in the covered way, to prevent a surprize.



http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html

Edited by Mercia2, 27 October 2009 - 07:50 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#3 Mercia2

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:13 PM

The bar code designer unconciously used the two lines that corrospond to a 6 for the 3 guard bars, the only unchanging structure of the consumer universal product code that remains the same world wide on everything we literally "buy and sell"

A massive coincidene? or a massive sign? American Futurists have largely ignored it as what it reveals about them is a little too close for comfort. They would much rather believe a literal mark will be a personal liberty issue. Not their very way of life

By "looking" at the above barcode, the number "666" clearly, appears to be there. . .

But is it?

Is the number 666 TRUTHFULLY "hidden" in the UPC barcode?

Technically, no it is not.


Here's the "technical" truth. . .

The number 6 and the three guard bars are NOT the same. They do "appear" to be identical, but they are different.

GUARD BARS AND THE NUMBER 6
B M 6
1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

101 01010 1010000

Notice. The beginning and ending guard bars are "bar-space-bar" or "101" (the B in the above table). The middle guard bar is "space-bar-space-bar-space" or "01010" (the M in the above table). The number six is "1010000" (the 6 in the above table). Remember, technically a barcode number consists of seven units. The beginning and ending guard bars are only three units, and middle guard bar is only five units.

So, technically, from a computer's perspective the number "666" is NOT in the UPC barcode.

But. . .

Look again. . . All three guard bars contain the pattern "bar-space-bar" or "101". There is only ONE number, in TWENTY numbers (remember right and left numbers have different patterns) that contains the "101" pattern and that number is the right code SIX. Not the number one, or two, or three, etc. — but ONLY the right code SIX. I do seem to remember something about a mark on the RIGHT hand (Rev. 13:16).

Technically, from a computer's perspective the number "666" is NOT in the UPC barcode. . . but from a human's perspective — YES, the "appearance" of 666 is there!

What does the inventor of the UPC barcode say about the number "666" in the UPC barcode?

The inventor of the UPC barcode is George J. Laurer. In 1971, while Mr. Laurer was an employee with IBM, he was assigned the task "to design the best code and symbol suitable for the grocery industry". In 1973, Mr. Laurer's UPC barcode entered the world, and the rest is history.

On Mr. Laurer's web site, he has a "Questions" page, where he answers various questions about the UPC barcode. On the "Questions" page, Mr. Laurer answers the "666" question, as follows:

Question #8 - Rumor has it that the lines (left, middle, and right) that protrude below the U.P.C. code are the numbers 6,6,6... and that this is the international money code. I typed a code with all sixes and this seems to be true. At least they all resemble sixes. What's up with that?

Answer- Yes, they do RESEMBLE the code for a six. An even parity 6 is:

1 module wide black bar 1 module wide white space 1 module wide black bar 4 module wide white space

There is nothing sinister about this nor does it have anything to do with the Bible's "mark of the beast" (The New Testament, The Revelation, Chapter 13, paragraph 18). It is simply a coincidence like the fact that my first, middle, and last name all have 6 letters. There is no connection with an international money code either. (From website)

Even, Mr. Laurer, the inventor of the UPC barcode admits, "Yes, they do RESEMBLE the code for a six."

In fact, as we've documented — SIX is the ONLY number they could RESEMBLE.

You would certainly think because of the "antichrist connections" to "666" they would have picked another number besides '6' to pattern the three 'guard bars' after? Why not 1 or 3, or 5, etc. — any number but '666'. Surely they knew Christians would, sooner or later, "discover" the clear "appearance" of 666 in the UPC bar code.

Maybe they had no choice?


"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#4 Mercia2

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:38 PM

One of the seven additional thunders delivered in the time of the end?

Chernobyl, 1986. Mans worst ever man made disaster.

"and they still did not repent of the what their own hands have made"
"God...will destroy those who destroy the earth"

1. Chernobyl is named after the bitter herb Wormwood (ignore Wikipedia and research yourself)
2. A star is a sun is literally a nuclear reactor (the fision/fusion argument aside), its the closest natural symbol God could have used.
3. The reactor blew a mile into the sky and fell to the earth burning as a lamp
4. It was made worse as it rained for 3 weeks all over Europe, this is how almost everyone got infected.
5. Many men literally died.

Quoted by the former President of Belarus at th UN under Hans Blix office..


United Nations A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Assembly A/45/PV.32
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forty-fifth session
Excerpts from the provisional verbatim record of the thirty- second
meeting held at Headquarters, New York on Tuesday, 23 October 1990,
at 10 a.m.

Mr. Blix (IAEA):...

In Slavic languages, including the Ukrainian and Byelorussian languages, there is a
word "chernobyl", which means wormwood, bitter grass. This has striking relevance to
the Chernobyl tragedy. I am no fatalist. I do not believe in the blind inevitability
of fate, but who can fail to be moved by these tragic and elegiac words from
Revelation, which must leave their indelible imprint on the heart:

"... and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp,
and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of
water;

And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the
waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were
made bitter." (The Holy Bible, Revelation 8:10-11)

http://www.dhushara....er/wormcher.htm



The reactor blew over a mile in to the sky burning like a lamp. Survivors say that when the reactor exploded, what they could see was a giant red glow slowly falling. It rained for 3 weeks all over Europe, in Finland the reindeer died, in southern Italy tens of thousands of acres of fruit farms destroyed. 19 million have been infected according to the UN. With cancer rates massivly increasing all over Europe and only peaking now. It was made worse becase Chernobyl got in to the waters and aquifers. Now a star is a sun and a sun is literally a nuclear reactor. The prophecy is one with a dual fulfillment, one spiritual and one literal, its happened, it is undeniable. Mans worst ever man made disaster is in the Bible

Wikipedia is still saying Wormwood does not translate Chernobyl to this day calling it an urban myth, which just goes to show how much you can trust sites like that and snoopes when it comes to anything that would prove Gods existance, like this. I have a BBC article on the Chernobyl museum in Ukraine explaining from a stand their how it is named after the bitter herb wormwood. That is something like a 500.000-1 chance. Probably more as the name fits the descrption of what happened so accurately.

Interesting article here
http://www.endtime.c...-Shuts-Down.pdf

Furthermore, the previous Trumpet prophecy, Trumpet 2 talks of a third of all the worlds ships being sunk in a war. In WW2, 300,000 merchants shps took part, practically the whole worlds shipping, one third were sunk. While in the 80s the WWF reported we have litrally lost a third of all sea ife due to pollution. So we must never limit Gods Word. Also the prophecy talks of a great mountain burning on fire being cast down into the sea or crowded old world of "multitudes, peoples and tongues" i.e europe. A mountain in Bible symbolism is a powerful nation, as Jeremiah called Baylon, 'thou destroying mountain'.. So when else was a powerful European nation cast down burning with fire? such as the firestorms of Dresden, Hamburg and Berlin during WW2. The exact same time the world once and only also lost a third of all worlds shipping. More coincidence?

And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed
.


In Daniel 12, Daniel is asking for prophetic knowledge of the "time of the end", the angel replies that the words are sealed (as only our generations would understand them), but that many will run to and fro (symbolically means to search Gods prophetic word) and that the prophetic knowlege Daniel seeks will increase.

Edited by Mercia2, 27 October 2009 - 08:41 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#5 Retrobyter_*

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 10:19 PM

Shalom, Mercia2.

The bar code designer unconciously used the two lines that corrospond to a 6 for the 3 guard bars, the only unchanging structure of the consumer universal product code that remains the same world wide on everything we literally "buy and sell"

A massive coincidene? or a massive sign? American Futurists have largely ignored it as what it reveals about them is a little too close for comfort. They would much rather believe a literal mark will be a personal liberty issue. Not their very way of life

By "looking" at the above barcode, the number "666" clearly, appears to be there. . .

But is it?

Is the number 666 TRUTHFULLY "hidden" in the UPC barcode?

Technically, no it is not.


Here's the "technical" truth. . .

The number 6 and the three guard bars are NOT the same. They do "appear" to be identical, but they are different.

GUARD BARS AND THE NUMBER 6
B M 6
1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

101 01010 1010000

Notice. The beginning and ending guard bars are "bar-space-bar" or "101" (the B in the above table). The middle guard bar is "space-bar-space-bar-space" or "01010" (the M in the above table). The number six is "1010000" (the 6 in the above table). Remember, technically a barcode number consists of seven units. The beginning and ending guard bars are only three units, and middle guard bar is only five units.

So, technically, from a computer's perspective the number "666" is NOT in the UPC barcode.

But. . .

Look again. . . All three guard bars contain the pattern "bar-space-bar" or "101". There is only ONE number, in TWENTY numbers (remember right and left numbers have different patterns) that contains the "101" pattern and that number is the right code SIX. Not the number one, or two, or three, etc. — but ONLY the right code SIX. I do seem to remember something about a mark on the RIGHT hand (Rev. 13:16).

Technically, from a computer's perspective the number "666" is NOT in the UPC barcode. . . but from a human's perspective — YES, the "appearance" of 666 is there!

What does the inventor of the UPC barcode say about the number "666" in the UPC barcode?

The inventor of the UPC barcode is George J. Laurer. In 1971, while Mr. Laurer was an employee with IBM, he was assigned the task "to design the best code and symbol suitable for the grocery industry". In 1973, Mr. Laurer's UPC barcode entered the world, and the rest is history.

On Mr. Laurer's web site, he has a "Questions" page, where he answers various questions about the UPC barcode. On the "Questions" page, Mr. Laurer answers the "666" question, as follows:

Question #8 - Rumor has it that the lines (left, middle, and right) that protrude below the U.P.C. code are the numbers 6,6,6... and that this is the international money code. I typed a code with all sixes and this seems to be true. At least they all resemble sixes. What's up with that?

Answer- Yes, they do RESEMBLE the code for a six. An even parity 6 is:

1 module wide black bar 1 module wide white space 1 module wide black bar 4 module wide white space

There is nothing sinister about this nor does it have anything to do with the Bible's "mark of the beast" (The New Testament, The Revelation, Chapter 13, paragraph 18). It is simply a coincidence like the fact that my first, middle, and last name all have 6 letters. There is no connection with an international money code either. (From website)

Even, Mr. Laurer, the inventor of the UPC barcode admits, "Yes, they do RESEMBLE the code for a six."

In fact, as we've documented — SIX is the ONLY number they could RESEMBLE.

You would certainly think because of the "antichrist connections" to "666" they would have picked another number besides '6' to pattern the three 'guard bars' after? Why not 1 or 3, or 5, etc. — any number but '666'. Surely they knew Christians would, sooner or later, "discover" the clear "appearance" of 666 in the UPC bar code.

Maybe they had no choice?


It's actually a lot simpler than that.

The beginning code of the UPC bar coded stamp is usually "0000001010011010," or "029A" in hexadecimal, the normal "hand-shaking" protocol to identify it as a UPC that exists longer than the rest above the Number System Character and between the Number System Character, and the Manufacturer Code. This translates from the binary into the digital as 1x2+1x8+1x16+1x128+1x512 = 2+8+16+128+512 = 666. Remember: the number is not just "6-6-6." It's "six HUNDRED and sixTY-six!" So far, this is not consistent (although there are a HUGE amount of products that qualify), and no one is required to have such a number imprinted upon his right hand or upon his forehead, yet, but the day could come.
So, it's still a viable possibility, even though it has been denied at this time.

In the Messiah's love,
Roy

#6 Mercia2

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 03:58 AM

It's actually a lot simpler than that.

The beginning code of the UPC bar coded stamp is usually "0000001010011010," or "029A" in hexadecimal, the normal "hand-shaking" protocol to identify it as a UPC that exists longer than the rest above the Number System Character and between the Number System Character, and the Manufacturer Code. This translates from the binary into the digital as 1x2+1x8+1x16+1x128+1x512 = 2+8+16+128+512 = 666. Remember: the number is not just "6-6-6." It's "six HUNDRED and sixTY-six!" So far, this is not consistent (although there are a HUGE amount of products that qualify), and no one is required to have such a number imprinted upon his right hand or upon his forehead, yet, but the day could come.


Shalom Roy, that sounds simple. :hhurts:

I believe buying and selling has a important spiritual meaning, and the global economic system spoken of in Revelation 13 will be both spiritual (buying and selling ideas) and literal "buying and selling", global consumerism = the world system.

That the number of the man refers to the character of the medievil popes (microcosm) and now modern man (macrocosm).

I do not believe it matters what a computer may or may not read the UPC as, but that only how it reads to human eyes (it is a sign for humans not computers).

The context is "buying and selling" and globalisation "he causeth all", so I am only staying within that context.
1. Spiritual buying and selling = buying ideas
2. Literal buying and selling = the world system

I believe 666 in the forehead is a mindset = the flesh = love of the world = consumerism
But the right hand represents all of man as to his actions (as Gods right hand represents the same), so we literally will receive the mark everytime we buy or sell.

Can I recommend everyone who wants to look in to the matter themselves get "Coral Bar code maker" and isolate the two lines that corrospond to a 6 and compare to the three guard bars. You will see they took the two lines that corrospond to a 6 and used them for the only unchanging structure of the UPC.


Love in Christ
Russ

Edited by Mercia2, 28 October 2009 - 08:16 AM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#7 Mercia2

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 04:35 AM

The Jehovah Witnesses claim in chapter 3 of their book, Revelation, the Grand Climax to have been given key to understand Revelation and this is it. This is why they base so much prophecy this century. Now tell me this. If the Holy Spirit is not revealing this than how did I come up with this exact same interpretation within seconds of praying that the Holy Spirit help me understand what the little book is and what the seven thunders are and why they are situated between trumpet 6 and the final trump, Please be patient with me here and keep an open mind.


I should add the JWs do not explain it like I do. They just say they have found a key and that the little book and seven thunders are seven more prophecies delivered in the time of the end "like Chernobyl".
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#8 Mercia2

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 05:16 PM

To recap

I believe in prophetic Historcism (although there are variations of it), reallyone main one and another but reveal the same. I believe the 6 trumpets were fulfilled by the end of the 1800s although the view trumpet 6 is not finished works as well. There is no doubt the trumpet prophecies and Rev 13 had a more symbolic spiritual interpretation in the Churh era drawing on OT symbolism. I give more weight to the spiritual sense in the Church era. But we are no longer in the Church era, it ended after the 2300 years. We are in the era of feet of clay, the era of nations. We must wake up to this era having a more literal dual application as revealed by where the chapter, little book and seven more thunders is located.

7 additional thunders/prophecies in Rev 10 that John was told to "write not" as they are already written down, and represent another fulfillment of the Book of Revelation prophecies, or dual fulfillment as the "little book" representing Daniels "sealed book" of prophecies now delivered by the angel " open" (Rev 10:2), in the "time of the end" (Dan 12:4)

Which is after the fulfillment of trumpet 6 in the spiritual sense according to the traditional Historicist interpretation around 1860, which is why the little book or Daniels sealed book now "open" with 7 additional prophecies/thunders is delivered after trumpet 6 but before trumpet 7 where prophecy is finished (around 1860 which is when the time of the end begins).


We are now in the era of the nations and the four big gentile Christian nations are typologically revealed.

So in the 7 additional thunders/prophecies delivered at this point not only include seeing the modern symbols of the main Christian nations as now representing the lion(uk), bear(Russia) and leopard(Germany) as representing the Beast out of the sea that becomes (Europe) and crowded old world IN the image of the king of Mystery Babylon, while the only missing symbol in Rev 13 from Daniel 7 is the eagle. So the Beast out of the Earth is the leading world power before Christ returns represented by an eagle, or Protestant America as seen dividing from the lion in Dan 7 and growing up "FROM THE EARTH" (DAN 7:4).

Edited by Mercia2, 28 October 2009 - 05:41 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#9 Mercia2

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 05:37 PM

Dual application in the Bible is a established prophetic fact

It is not possible to rule it out here or in Daniel 7 when we know other prophecies in Daniel had dual fulfillment. As Jesus revealed.

Edited by Mercia2, 28 October 2009 - 05:39 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#10 Mercia2

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 05:16 AM

Why is the Bible anti-reductionist by nature?

Here is the most obvious example why.....

Dual Fulfilment of Prophecy

About one-third of the Bible is prophecy. Much of it has more than one fulfilment. Are there any principles which help us in seeing how a prophecy might be fulfilled more than once? Here are three ways in which Bible prophecies can be fulfilled more than once.


A typical fulfilment first

Some Bible prophecies have their complete fulfilment in the long term, but in the short term there is a partial fulfilment in events which are types of the complete fulfilment.

Example. The promises to David are quoted with reference to Solomon; compare:

1 Chronicles 17:12,13 with 22:9,10. This is because Solomon's reign was a type of Christ's Kingdom; compare 1 Kings 4:25 with prophecies of the Kingdom in Jeremiah 23:6 and Micah 4:4. However, their complete fulfilment comes with Christ; see Luke 1:32,33 and Acts 13:33.

Other examples. Micah 4,5 was initially fulfilled by Hezekiah in relation to the Assyrian invasion, but will be more completely fulfilled by Christ setting up the Kingdom. Some features of Psalm 72 were fulfilled by Solomon's kingdom, but the psalm will be completely fulfilled in the future reign of Christ.


A typical fulfilment later

Some Bible prophecies are fulfilled completely initially but this fulfilment is typical of something greater to come.

Example. Isaiah 17 was fulfilled in the Assyrian invasion in Hezekiah's time, culminating in the destruction of the Assyrian host (v. 14). Yet this fulfilment is also typical of the host which invades the land at the time of Christ's return, and is destroyed.

Other examples. Jeremiah 50 and 51 are prophetic of the overthrow of the kingdom of Babylon, but the extensive use of the language of these chapters in Revelation 17 and 18 shows that this overthrow was typical of the overthrow of spiritual Babylon at Christ's return. Psalm 41 (not strictly prophecy) is about David's experiences in the revolt of Absalom, but his betrayal by Ahithophel is typical of Judas's betrayal of Christ (v. 9, quoted in John 13:18).


Prophecies fulfilled on a number of occasions

Some Bible prophecies are fulfilled on several occasions because of situations which keep occurring.

Example. Deuteronomy 28:49 prophesies of "a nation . . . from far" which God would send against Israel if they forsook Him. Note how the terms of this verse were fulfilled by Assyria (Isa. 5:26; 33:19; Hos. 8:1) and Babylon (Jer. 4:13; 5:15) as well as Rome (Mt. 24:28).

Other examples. Cannibalism, prophesied in Leviticus 26:29, is recorded in both 2 Kgs. 6:26-31 and Lamentations 4:10, and according to Josephus occurred in A.D. 70. The opposition to Christ by rulers foretold in Psalm 2:1-3 occurred at his birth (Mt. 2) and his crucifixion (Acts 4:25-28), and will occur at his Second Coming (Rev. 17:12-14) and at the end of the Millennium (20:7-10).
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#11 Mercia2

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 03:03 PM

So what does this latter day dual application reveal?

it is really just a re-confirmation of Historicism and what we already know but applied to today.

1. Christian Europe (sea beast) and America (earth beast) are still beasts in Gods eyes
2. The inventions of our own hands will literally destroy us (nuclear power and nuclear proliferation)
3. Protestant America does the foreign policy agenda of the Vatican
4. Protestant America and the pope have enforced a world system that is destroying the earth spiritually and literally
5. The Kingdom of the flesh - we are living in a time with more materialism and therefore a time that is more perilous spiritually than any time in human history

Modern man is as materialistic and blasphemous as the medievil popes (in the image of the beast)
The man of sin as microcosm is devoid of the Spirit of God, modern man is devoid of the Spirit of God.

6. The rich nations are condemned for destoying the earth through that nature (the flesh/consumerism), apart from those in those nations who are not "in the image of the beast" (carnal, fleshly, materialistic and blasphemous) and have been sealed by God. The meek and lowly valleys (nations) will inherit the earth. Mountains in Bible symbolism represent powerful nations or goverments, valleys represent lowly or humble nations or goverments (see the symbolism in Isaiah 2-3).

7. Condemnation for receiving the mark is two fold. We are not condemned just for receiving the mark alone but receivin the mark and being in that image (adoring all it stands for).

Where the JWs go astray like the Jews of old is in their (Futurists like) idea that the latter day application of the mark is going to by a personal liberties issue. The Jews though Jesus was coming to free them from literal occupation and not spiritual occupation, they thought it was a personal liberties issue as well.

Clearly a literal translation of a personified "he" or nation (the Beast out of the earth) forcing consumer capitalism on the world (the reason for most wars this century) is the more literal reading of making fire come down from the sky on nations to enforce our/their will and the wording "he causeth all" along with the context of "buying and selling" is CLEARLY referring to the world economic system of things. Not withstanding the previous spiritual interpetation of butying and selling always still applies.

The JWs, also make reference to pollution and chernobyl. I believe this is based on my previous literal interpretation of Trumpet 2 and Trumpet 3, in which a third of sea life is killed due to pollution and nuclear power causes millions of deaths the last 20 years in increased cancer rates which have shot up all over Europe.

So they are correct to perceive this is now the message God is giving in our era and that a more literal reading of Revelation 11:18 therefore now applies in the context of nuclear proliferation and pollution "God.. will destrory those who destroy the earth".

Edited by Mercia2, 29 October 2009 - 03:42 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#12 Mercia2

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 03:50 PM

Clearly a literal translation of a personified "he" or nation (the Beast out of the earth) forcing consumer capitalism on the world (the reason for most wars this century) is the more literal reading of making fire come down from the sky on nations to enforce our/their will and the wording "he causeth all" along with the context of "buying and selling" is CLEARLY referring to the world economic system of things. Not withstanding the previous spiritual interpetation of butying and selling always still applies.


Infact in dual application prophecies, the spiritual sense is always far more important than the more lteral fulfillment, as the spiritual application will reveal and teach us, while the more literal fulfillment is more of a confirming sign.

The crux is, you cannot understand this latter fulfillment and the seven additional thunders after trumpet 6 unless you are already a Historicist. This is a dual application for Historicists only.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#13 Fortigurn

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 03:54 PM

tl; dr.

#14 Mercia2

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:25 PM

'Fortigurn' post='384813'.

ah, I have been expecting you.

Edited by Mercia2, 29 October 2009 - 04:31 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#15 Mercia2

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:36 PM

I think you did.
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/

#16 Mercia2

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 06:27 PM

Can you give me a link to your version of Trumpet 6, seeing I think you dispute the Ottoman Empire?

We reserve further comment on the claims of the continuous historical interpretation to be the correct interpretation until we have given the alternative interpretations a close examination.

http://www.antipas.o...rce/revp_2.html


Edited by Mercia2, 29 October 2009 - 06:29 PM.

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” = "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?" = "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who maketh His angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire" Psalms (104:1) = "They saw what seemed to be flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them." Acts 2 - the secret is over, your ministering angel you need to be saved is the Holy Spirit.

Who Is the Holy Spirit?
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20950-holy-spirit-mercia/

Mark Of The Beast - his Name is the charachter/image of the medievil popes (now modern man)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/4997-mark-of-the-beast/page__pid__439951__st__120#entry439951

Historicists - Dual Fulfillment (seven thunders = more literal warning)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/14248-historicists-revelation-has-a-dual-fulfillment/




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