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#1 Me2007_*

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:09 PM

What does the Bible really say about ‘Satan’ and demons?
DOES EVIL COME FROM SATAN?
Throughout the Bible, God is described as the only source of supernatural disaster and evil: Judges 9:23, 1 Samuel 16:14-23, 2 Samuel 24:1 1 Kings 22:22-23, 1 Chronicles 21:1, 2 Chronicles 18:21-22, Job 1:12, 16, 21; 2:6, 9, 10; 5:17; 6:4; 9:4; 10:2; 11:5-6; 19:21; 27:2; 42:11, Psalm 78:49, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6, Micah 1:12, 2 Corinthians 12:7, Romans 1:25-32, 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
No one can be found in the Old Testament who believed in a supernatural evil being called ‘Satan’: For example, all the individuals in the book of Job belief his disasters came from God, including Job (Job 1:21; 2:20; 6:4; 10:2; 19:21; 27:2), Job’s servant (Job 1:16), Job's wife (Job 2:9), Job's three friends (Job 5:17; 8:4; 11:5-6), Job’s acquaintances and relations (Job 42:11), and Job’s adversary himself (Job 1:12; 2:6).

WHAT ABOUT SATAN?
The Hebrew word ‘satan’ is not a personal name: It is a word meaning ‘adversary’. It is used of different adversaries in different places. In Numbers 22:22 it is used of an obedient angel, in 1 Kings 11:14, 23-24 and Psalm 109:68 it is used of mortal men, in
1 Chronicles 21:1 it is used of an enemy nation, and in Matthew 16:23 and Mark 8:33 it is used of Jesus’ disciple Peter, when he was opposing Jesus.

WHAT ABOUT THE DEVIL?
The Bible says the devil has been destroyed by Jesus: Jesus, by his death, destroyed the devil (Hebrews 2:14-18), and the devil is that which has the power of death, which is sin (Romans 7:8-11, 1 Corinthians 15:56-57). This shows us that ‘the devil’ is a term used for the natural tendency of men to sin.
The ‘devil’ is also sometimes used of evil rulers or kingdoms: 1 Peter 5:8 (quoting Proverbs 20:2; 28:15), Revelation 12:9 (quoting Daniel 7:7, 19-23)

WHAT ABOUT DEMONS?
‘Demons’ are false gods: Leviticus 17:6, Deuteronomy 32:16-17, 2 Chronicles 11:15, Psalm 106:36-37, Acts 17:18, 1 Corinthians 10:19-20. A belief in demons would contradict the Bible teaching that there is one God.
There is only one God – other gods do not exist: 2 Kings 19:18, 2 Chronicles 13:9, Isaiah 37:19; 44:9-10; 45:5-7, 20-22, Jeremiah 2:11; 5:7; 16:20, John 17:3, Acts 19:26, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6; 10:19-20, Galatians 4:8, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Timothy 2:5
‘Evil spirits’ in the Old Testament were sent by God: Judges 9:23, 1 Samuel 16:14-23, 1 Kings 22:22-23, 1 Chronicles 18:21-22, Psalm 78:49 (‘destroying angels’). They are not supernatural evil beings, they are God’s judgments on wicked men.

WHAT ABOUT EXORCISMS?
In the Bible we find an ‘evil spirit’ driven out with music: 1 Samuel 16:14-23
In the Bible we find ‘demons’ driven out with the power of God by a single commandment: Matthew 12:28, Mark 3:15; 16:17, Luke 11:20
People who believe in demons today do not follow these methods. If people use methods other than these, they are not following the Bible. If they cannot heal people who they claim are possessed with demons, they are not following the Bible. If these people can be healed with medicine, then they were not possessed by demons. Many people who believe in demons cannot even tell if someone who is sick has a natural illness, or has a demon. This means they are no help at all. Their ideas do not come from the Bible.

BUT THE GOSPELS TALK ABOUT DEMONS AND EVIL SPIRITS
The gospel records were written to non-Christians or immature Christians, so it uses the language they are familiar with. It doesn’t try to convert them from their false beliefs, it simply shows them that demons and evil spirits were not to be feared.
In John’s gospel, and the letters of the apostles, which were all written for mature Christian believers, there are no demon possessed people at all. Demons are described as pagan gods. Healings are spoken of simply as making people well. There is no mention of any healings requiring demons or evil spirits being ‘cast out’ of people. Mature Christians no longer held these false beliefs.
To show that the ‘demons’ and ‘evil spirits’ weren’t really speaking, the gospels sometimes speak of the people as if they were the demons themselves: Mark 3:11; 5:9-10, Luke 8:30-31; 11:14
People who were thought to be possessed by demons were treated by Christ and the apostles as sick people: Matthew 8:16-17, Luke 6:17-18; 7:21; 8:2; 19:32, Acts 5:16; 19:12

WHAT ARE EVIL SPIRITS?
In the Old Testament, a perverse attitude or distorted thinking, which can be an illness:
• The evil spirit sent by God between Abimelech and the men of Shechem (Judges 9:23)
• The evil spirit sent by God to Saul (1 Samuel 16:14-23)
• The ‘lying spirit’ sent by God to the false prophets of the king of Israel (1 Kings 22:22-23 and 1 Chronicles 18:21-22)

In the New Testament, they are an illness or a perverse attitude or distorted thinking as a result of an illness (but thought by people to be a supernatural evil being):
Luke 7:21, ‘Jesus cured many people of diseases, sicknesses, and evil spirits’
Luke 8:2, ‘some women who had been healed of evil spirits and disabilities’
Acts 19:12, ‘their diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them’

WHAT ARE UNCLEAN SPIRITS?
In the Old Testament, a perverse attitude or distorted thinking, associated with idol worship:
Zechariah 13:2, ‘I will remove the names of the idols from the land… I will remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land’
In the New Testament, they are a perverse attitude or distorted thinking, sometimes the result of an illness (but thought by people to be a supernatural evil being):
Matthew 12:43, ‘When an unclean spirit goes out of a person, it passes through waterless places looking for rest but does not find it’
Luke 4:33, ‘Now in the synagogue there was a man who had an unclean, demonic spirit’
Luke 6:17-18, ‘They came to hear him and to be healed of their diseases, and those who suffered from unclean spirits were cured’

WHAT ARE DEMONS?
In the Old Testament, pagan false gods or idols made by men:
Deuteronomy 32:17, ‘They sacrificed to demons, not God, to deities they had never known’
2 Chronicles 11:15, ‘and had appointed his own priests for the high places, and for the goat-demons, and for the calves that he had made’
Psalm 106:36-37, ‘They served their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons’
In the New Testament, they are pagan false gods, not an illness (but thought by people to be a supernatural evil being):
1 Corinthians 10:20, ‘No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God’
Revelation 9:20, ‘they did not stop worshiping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk about’

SUMMARY
All ideas of ‘satan’ and ‘demons’ as supernatural evil beings are just false ideas and false gods. They are made by men, just like idols:

Other gods Idols Demons
Made by men:
2 Kings 19:18, Isaiah 37:18-19; 44:9-10, Jeremiah 16:20 Made by men:
Isaiah 37:18-19; 44:9-10, Revelation 9:20 Made by men:
2 Chronicles 11:15, Revelation 9:20
Worshipped:
Exodus 2-:23. Deuteronomy 4:28; 32:16- 7, Isaiah 37:18-19, Jeremiah 16:20 Worshipped as gods:
Exodus 20:23, Deuteronomy 4:28; 32:16, Psalm 96:5, 106:36, Isaiah 37:18-19; 44:9-10, Jeremiah 16:20, Revelation 9:20 Are gods:
Leviticus 17:7, Deuteronomy 32:17, 2 Chronicles 11:15, Psalm 96:6; 106:37, Acts 17:18, 1 Corinthians 10:19-20, Revelation 9:20

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Do you really believe "evil" comes from God?

#2 Fortigurn

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:31 PM

What does the Bible say?

#3 Berean

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:58 PM

I think it doesn't say 'evil' in the NWT for Isa 45:7, I am sure Me2007 will tell us that soon.

Edited by Gileade, 31 January 2008 - 04:59 PM.


#4 Me2007_*

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 08:42 AM

I think it doesn't say 'evil' in the NWT for Isa 45:7, I am sure Me2007 will tell us that soon.


No, it doesn't say 'evil' in the NWT, it says 'calamity'.

Perhaps I should rephrase my question...

Do you believe God is to be blamed for all the 'evil/calamity' that exists in the world today?

#5 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:12 AM

Do you believe God is to be blamed for all the 'evil/calamity' that exists in the world today?


No, and nor did we say so:

Throughout the Bible, God is described as the only source of supernatural disaster and evil...



#6 Me2007_*

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:36 AM

Do you believe God is to be blamed for all the 'evil/calamity' that exists in the world today?


No, and nor did we say so:

Throughout the Bible, God is described as the only source of supernatural disaster and evil...

No???

Fortigurn is described as the only source of A and B.

Using the statement above...

Is it not correct to imply that since Fortigurn is described as the originator/only source of A and B,
then Fortigurn is to blame for the existence of A and B in the world today?

#7 Chris

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:56 AM

Do you believe God is to be blamed for all the 'evil/calamity' that exists in the world today?


No, and nor did we say so:

Throughout the Bible, God is described as the only source of supernatural disaster and evil...

No???

Fortigurn is described as the only source of A and B.

Using the statement above...

Is it not correct to imply that since Fortigurn is described as the originator/only source of A and B,
then Fortigurn is to blame for the existence of A and B in the world today?


The important word here is "supernatural".

#8 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:59 AM

Do you believe God is to be blamed for all the 'evil/calamity' that exists in the world today?


No, and nor did we say so:

Throughout the Bible, God is described as the only source of supernatural disaster and evil...

No???


No.

Fortigurn is described as the only source of A and B.


False analogy. It would be an accurate analogy if you said 'Fortigurn is described as the only source of supernatural A and B'.

Is it not correct to imply that since Fortigurn is described as the originator/only source of A and B,
then Fortigurn is to blame for the existence of A and B in the world today?


If that's someone made that statement, then yes that would be true. But I made no statement analogous to that.

#9 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:11 AM

The important word here is "supernatural".


I thought it would help if I put the word in a big bold font, but apparently not. Maybe I need some coloured lights.

#10 Me2007_*

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 01:12 PM

The important word here is "supernatural".


I thought it would help if I put the word in a big bold font, but apparently not. Maybe I need some coloured lights.



Here was the question: Do you believe God is to be blamed for all the 'evil/calamity' that exists in the world today?

Your answer was "No"

You say the key word is "supernatural"

Is evil/calamity only "supernatural"?

If not, who is to blame for all the "natural" evil/calamity that exists in the world today?

#11 Richard

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 01:18 PM

Depends what you mean by "natural evil/calamity". If you mean things like sin and nuclear power station leaks then the answer is man. If you mean things like earthquakes, a natural event, then God, although you can't really "blame" him as such even though he created the laws of the universe that brings about natural calamities.

#12 Me2007_*

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 04:12 PM

Tell me if you agree with this...

Evil/Calamity whether "natural" or "supernatural" may have been created by God, but does not necessarily mean He causes them.

God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil, however, he told Adam what would happen to him if he ate from that tree.

Man and those who do not obey God's will are the cause of evil and calamity. You can see this theme throughout all of the bible stories.

God is Love.

#13 Richard

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 04:26 PM

Yes God is love - which means sometimes he admonishes people with calamity.

#14 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 05:39 PM

Here was the question: Do you believe God is to be blamed for all the 'evil/calamity' that exists in the world today?

Your answer was "No"


That's correct. I do not believe that God is to be blamed for all the evil/calamity that exists in the world today.

You say the key word is "supernatural"


Yes.

Is evil/calamity only "supernatural"?


No. That is precisely why my statement does not mean what you thought. God is responsible only for the supernatural evil/calamity in the world. And He is the only one so responsible.

If not, who is to blame for all the "natural" evil/calamity that exists in the world today?


Man on the one hand, and physics on the other.

#15 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 05:41 PM

Tell me if you agree with this...

Evil/Calamity whether "natural" or "supernatural" may have been created by God, but does not necessarily mean He causes them.


That doesn't make sense. God didn't 'create' supernatural evil or calamity. It only happens at His will.

God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil, however, he told Adam what would happen to him if he ate from that tree.


True.

Man and those who do not obey God's will are the cause of evil and calamity. You can see this theme throughout all of the bible stories.


They are not the only cause of evil and calamity. There's also physics and God. You still haven't addressed a single one of the quotes provided, and that's the real issue here.

God is Love.


In the Bible, God also sometimes kills people with hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning. You can call that what you like, but you can't deny it.

#16 Me2007_*

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 07:40 PM

Tell me if you agree with this...

Evil/Calamity whether "natural" or "supernatural" may have been created by God, but does not necessarily mean He causes them.


That doesn't make sense. God didn't 'create' supernatural evil or calamity. It only happens at His will.


God didn't 'create' supernatural evil or calamity???
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Man and those who do not obey God's will are the cause of evil and calamity. You can see this theme throughout all of the bible stories.


They are not the only cause of evil and calamity. There's also physics and God. You still haven't addressed a single one of the quotes provided, and that's the real issue here.


So...
Didn't God create physics? I addressed Isa 45:7 above.

God is Love.


In the Bible, God also sometimes kills people with hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning. You can call that what you like, but you can't deny it.


Okay...does that make Him any less loving?

Edited by Me2007, 01 February 2008 - 07:51 PM.


#17 Fortigurn

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 10:13 PM

God didn't 'create' supernatural evil or calamity???


No He didn't 'create' it. It's not a thing hanging around the place like a rock. He causes supernatural evil or calamity, which is what Isaiah 45:7 says (note the present tense, it's not the past tense).

Didn't God create physics?


Yes, but He is not directly responsible for what happens as a result of the laws of physics.

Okay...does that make Him any less loving?


No, and that's my whole point. You seem to think it's either/or.

#18 Me2007_*

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 03:05 PM

God didn't 'create' supernatural evil or calamity???


No He didn't 'create' it. It's not a thing hanging around the place like a rock. He causes supernatural evil or calamity, which is what Isaiah 45:7 says (note the present tense, it's not the past tense).


I disagree. God does not cause 'supernatural evil or calamity'. These are the works of those who disobey God and simply chance.
Notice these scriptures...

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 (KJV)
11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

12For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.


Didn't God create physics?


Yes, but He is not directly responsible for what happens as a result of the laws of physics.


I totally agree with you here, but you are contradicting yourself.
You said "In the Bible, God also sometimes kills people with hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning."
hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning occur because of the laws of physics.

Okay...does that make Him any less loving?


No, and that's my whole point. You seem to think it's either/or.


I seem to think it's "either/or" what?

#19 Fortigurn

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:12 PM

God didn't 'create' supernatural evil or calamity???


No He didn't 'create' it. It's not a thing hanging around the place like a rock. He causes supernatural evil or calamity, which is what Isaiah 45:7 says (note the present tense, it's not the past tense).


I disagree. God does not cause 'supernatural evil or calamity'. These are the works of those who disobey God and simply chance.


Please actually address the passages of Scripture we've provided, especially Isaiah 45:7. Men cannot cause supernatural evil/calamity, and evil/calamity caused by chance is not supernatural.

Notice these scriptures...

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 (KJV)
11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

12For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.


Yes, men receive what they reap, and time and chance happen to all men. This says nothing about supernatural evil/calamity.

I totally agree with you here, but you are contradicting yourself.
You said "In the Bible, God also sometimes kills people with hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning."
hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning occur because of the laws of physics.


This is not a contradiction. If God causes an earthquake then it didn't happen because of physics, it happened because God caused it. When I say it happened because of physics I mean the same thing you mean when you say it happened because of chance.

I seem to think it's "either/or" what?


You seem to think that either God is loving and therefore cannot cause evil/calamity, or he isn't loving and can.

#20 Me2007_*

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 01:12 PM

God didn't 'create' supernatural evil or calamity???


No He didn't 'create' it. It's not a thing hanging around the place like a rock. He causes supernatural evil or calamity, which is what Isaiah 45:7 says (note the present tense, it's not the past tense).


I disagree. God does not cause 'supernatural evil or calamity'. These are the works of those who disobey God and simply chance.


Please actually address the passages of Scripture we've provided, especially Isaiah 45:7. Men cannot cause supernatural evil/calamity, and evil/calamity caused by chance is not supernatural.

Notice these scriptures...

Galatians 6:7 (KJV)
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Ecclesiastes 9:11-12 (KJV)
11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

12For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.


Yes, men receive what they reap, and time and chance happen to all men. This says nothing about supernatural evil/calamity.

I totally agree with you here, but you are contradicting yourself.
You said "In the Bible, God also sometimes kills people with hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning."
hailstorms, earthquakes, and lightning occur because of the laws of physics.


This is not a contradiction. If God causes an earthquake then it didn't happen because of physics, it happened because God caused it. When I say it happened because of physics I mean the same thing you mean when you say it happened because of chance.



I believe the issue here is that I personally don't see a difference between "supernatural" and "natural" evil/calamity.

Evil and Calamity whether natural or supernatural are the same.

Basically, God, whose name is Jehovah which means "He causes to become" can make or create anything He wants, including evil and calamity. Isa 45:7

In the case of those who disobey God, evil and calamity are brought upon them based on their own actions. Therefore, they are responsible and the cause for their own suffering, not God.

For example:
Satan, the devil, the fallen angel and his army of demons (one third of the angels) Rev. 12:4

Adam. Gen. 3:17-19

Cain. Gen 4:11-12

The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's wife. Gen. 19:24-26



See the scriptures below for some insight into God's way of handling such matters...

Consider Jeremiah 18:7-10 (KJV)
7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

I seem to think it's "either/or" what?


You seem to think that either God is loving and therefore cannot cause evil/calamity, or he isn't loving and can.


God is Love, however another significant quality of His is Justice, which is where 'evil/calamity' would fit into.

So, do you believe God is Just?

Edited by Me2007, 03 February 2008 - 01:13 PM.





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