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#61 Jeremy

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:51 AM

Richie, this is precisely why the promise of an eternal life has little meaning for me. It's difficult for me to conceive that a God could be so amazingly clever that He could create the universe, then in the next breath produce a series of writings giving a set of instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about, then plans to get vengeful because we never comprehended what was so 'obvious' in the fist place.

You give the impression of suggesting this is all God's fault.

Edited by Jeremy, 14 July 2008 - 01:55 AM.


#62 Jeppo_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 06:03 AM

Richie, this is precisely why the promise of an eternal life has little meaning for me. It's difficult for me to conceive that a God could be so amazingly clever that He could create the universe, then in the next breath produce a series of writings giving a set of instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about, then plans to get vengeful because we never comprehended what was so 'obvious' in the fist place.

You give the impression of suggesting this is all God's fault.

It's not 'God's fault' - you may be accusing me of commiting a victimless crime. I can't stand in judgement of something I don't believe exists. It's just the way the books were written. I wouldn't expect anything less from Bronze Age men. They were simply writing their ideas of their own conception of God, whatever that meant to them.

Even humans come up with instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about.

So God can't do better than humans? That's precisely my point. It is human. The Bible makes perfect sense when you look at it that way, there's no need to assume otherwise....unless there's a massive personal, social & cultural price to be paid for thinking otherwise. In that case I'd stick to your own way of thinking.

#63 Richard

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 08:23 AM

Richie, this is precisely why the promise of an eternal life has little meaning for me. It's difficult for me to conceive that a God could be so amazingly clever that He could create the universe, then in the next breath produce a series of writings giving a set of instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about, then plans to get vengeful because we never comprehended what was so 'obvious' in the fist place.

It's all about humility which human beings tend to be rubbish about.

Also has it never struck you that God has communicated to us in probably one of the most inefficient ways possible; producing books that even in the time of Jesus could not be read in their original language by the majority of people?

It got through to people - God knows what he is doing.

I suspect you have been brought up in the 'truth' like most people who profess a belief, it's very different for those of us who don't have these overpowering formative experiences.

Yes that's fine. And there are people who don't want eternal life and don't want to seek after God, and they'll live their lives and die and that's that. Nobody's forcing anyone to believe in God.

#64 Richard

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 08:25 AM

It's not 'God's fault' - you may be accusing me of commiting a victimless crime. I can't stand in judgement of something I don't believe exists. It's just the way the books were written. I wouldn't expect anything less from Bronze Age men. They were simply writing their ideas of their own conception of God, whatever that meant to them.

You need to give the Bible a better chance than assuming it's the work of man. If you do give it a chance you'll find it has been produced by a wisdom greater than any man could ever boast about. More intelligent people than you have realized this and embraced its message.

#65 ChickenSoup_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 09:11 AM

Even humans come up with instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about.

So God can't do better than humans? That's precisely my point. It is human. The Bible makes perfect sense when you look at it that way, there's no need to assume otherwise....unless there's a massive personal, social & cultural price to be paid for thinking otherwise. In that case I'd stick to your own way of thinking.

God communicated in a way in which he KNOWs his creation would understand. He created man in his own image and likeness with the mental capacity for understanding. Whether or not humans chose to seek to understand Him and his ways is up to them.

#66 Jeppo_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 09:50 AM

It got through to people - God knows what he is doing.

Well, some sort of message got through. It's just a shame that virtually 2 billion Christians have made an absolute howler with the Trinity, heaven, demons, hellfire etc.. (the amount of 'false' teaching seems almost endless).

More intelligent people than you have realized this and embraced its message.

There are plenty of Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus who are also more intelligent than me. Should I believe what they believe?

#67 nsr

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 09:54 AM

False teaching such as the Trinity etc didn't come solely from misinterpreting the Bible. It came from amalgamating the Bible with other sources of teaching, such as Greek philosophy. Nobody would come up with the idea of the Trinity purely from reading the Bible :)

#68 Richard

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 10:09 AM

It got through to people - God knows what he is doing.

Well, some sort of message got through. It's just a shame that virtually 2 billion Christians have made an absolute howler with the Trinity, heaven, demons, hellfire etc.. (the amount of 'false' teaching seems almost endless).

Which is exactly my point - hardly anyone actually wants to listen to God.

More intelligent people than you have realized this and embraced its message.

There are plenty of Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus who are also more intelligent than me. Should I believe what they believe?

No, I am just saying that just because you're smart you shouldn't think you're smart enough to ignore the Bible.

#69 Guest_Corky_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:20 PM

Apologies to Corky if I came across too strong in either post. I am probably more angry with those who taught you the "truth" and showed you an "example" than anything else.


Usually if someone apologizes to me, I accept, but in this case there needs to be an understanding. What I have observed and experienced first hand doesn't leave me clueless and I am not ignorant of the fact that exclusive fellowships tend to not care less about their neighbors much less offer help in time of need. I am not talking about just Christadelphia but all exclusive fellowships of the premillennial view.

I am not on a self-righteous pedestal and pointing to the mote in my brother's eye because I don't care if you can see it or not. It is, however, a major flaw of the premillennial view of Christendom, because they ignore the plight of their fellow human beings today and imagine that Jesus will return tomorrow and fix it.

The suffering in the world is talked about by exclusive fellowships and they "wish" they could alleviate some of the suffering but yet "do" absolutely nothing about it. Well, faith without works is dead according to James and it reminds me of the words of Jesus in 25:32-40. He's not just talking about "the brotherhood" exclusively, because he mentions "all nations" and "strangers".

Think on it. Who is your neighbor? In answer to that question, Jesus gave the parable of the good Samaritan.

On the contrary, Richie, I do have a clue and I am not ignorant. It is through Abraham's "seed" that all nations are to be blessed and "if you be Christ's you are Abraham's seed". If you don't do it, who will? You've been waiting for Jesus to do it for 2,000 years - it hasn't happened, has it?

The Holocaust, could it have been prevented? Yes, it could have but in those days the Jews were the hated people of all Christendom, so they sat back, said nothing, and let it happen. As a southerner, I can remember the hatred of black people and God forbid that a black family attended a white church! It seems that "the kingdom of God" has a ways to go to be worthy of any return of Jesus.

Why doesn't God intervene and alleviate the suffering in the world? Because, He left you in charge of this planet, which makes it your job to take care of it and everything on it. Can't do it alone? That's not an excuse for doing nothing. You will be judged by what you do (or don't do) and not by what you believed (Rev. 20:13).

If you can understand what I'm saying, I accept your apology. Otherwise, I will have to shake the dust off my feet and move on.

#70 Richard

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:42 PM

I understand what you're saying and I agree with it - believe it or not. We are stewards of God's creation and need to help one another where we have opportunity. Christians have been accused of aiding the environmental crisis (or at least not helping alleviate it) for example because they say that Jesus will sort it all out or the rapture will happen, depending on the point of view. And there are those who have the view that we can just sit back and wait for Jesus to return. Well you might like to check out sites like http://www.agapeinaction.com (which seems to be down at the moment for some reason) or the work in India with lepers and orphans or the multitude of things that brothers and sisters in Christ do which aren't heralded. Nobody has the power to put an end to world suffering and our main duty is to tell people that there is hope, but that shouldn't stop us from doing what we can with the resources we have. So I'll thank you for not tarring everyone with the same brush.

#71 nsr

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:51 PM

Yes, acts of good will and charity are supposed to be done with the minimum of visibility.

#72 Guest_Corky_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:12 PM

I understand what you're saying and I agree with it - believe it or not. We are stewards of God's creation and need to help one another where we have opportunity. Christians have been accused of aiding the environmental crisis (or at least not helping alleviate it) for example because they say that Jesus will sort it all out or the rapture will happen, depending on the point of view. And there are those who have the view that we can just sit back and wait for Jesus to return. Well you might like to check out sites like http://www.agapeinaction.com (which seems to be down at the moment for some reason) or the work in India with lepers and orphans or the multitude of things that brothers and sisters in Christ do which aren't heralded. Nobody has the power to put an end to world suffering and our main duty is to tell people that there is hope, but that shouldn't stop us from doing what we can with the resources we have. So I'll thank you for not tarring everyone with the same brush.


Oh, I know there are some that do good works because I try to be one of them.

#73 Guest_Corky_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:51 PM

Yes, acts of good will and charity are supposed to be done with the minimum of visibility.


Not so sure I agree with that.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.



#74 Richard

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 03:06 PM

Yes, acts of good will and charity are supposed to be done with the minimum of visibility.


Not so sure I agree with that.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.


I think what nsr means is that we shouldn't be sounding the trumpet like the Pharisees when we do good works. Remember that true love isn't necessary manifest in things like giving money to the poor. Very hypocritical hateful people do charitable works.

Really our good works should be an extension of our faith and if we don't have faith then any good works will be forced and not part of who we really are. God doesn't want us to do loving acts; he wants us to be loving people by the transformation of our hearts and minds so that one's duty to one neighbour doesn't come from a grudging feeling of responsibility, for God loves a cheerful giver.

#75 Guest_Corky_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 03:51 PM

Yes, acts of good will and charity are supposed to be done with the minimum of visibility.


Not so sure I agree with that.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.


I think what nsr means is that we shouldn't be sounding the trumpet like the Pharisees when we do good works. Remember that true love isn't necessary manifest in things like giving money to the poor. Very hypocritical hateful people do charitable works.

Really our good works should be an extension of our faith and if we don't have faith then any good works will be forced and not part of who we really are. God doesn't want us to do loving acts; he wants us to be loving people by the transformation of our hearts and minds so that one's duty to one neighbour doesn't come from a grudging feeling of responsibility, for God loves a cheerful giver.


Yes, I know what you mean about the "trumpet". I have heard that trumpet sounded many times. It is far better to do the works and let someone else sound the trumpet but no one will sound the trumpet if the works are not visible.

If a "church" down the street does good works, it will get "noised abroad" and people will know about it (and their membership increases too, by the way). If that church merely claims "good works", people will say, "what good works? I haven't seen any". People are funny that way, actions speak a lot louder than words (or trumpets).




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