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#41 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 09:41 AM

OK, i'll humour you. Let's take the Boxing Day tsunami as an example. I didn't come across anybody blaming Adam & Eve for the mounting death toll, but that's essentially the logic of your statements. However, I tend to believe the seismologists; the tsunami was caused by an earthquake close to Sumatra. It's a subduction zone, but i won't bore you with stuff about Plate Tectonics. We live on the crust of a cooling earth, so we just have to get used to these planetary teething problems. Millennia ago we may have conceded that the tsunami might have been caused by a particular underwater Sea-God seeking vengeance on humans, but thankfully due to the enlightenment of modern science we can discount stuff like that, I hope.


Tsunamis, along with other inconveniences of plate tectonics, are part of the cost of creation. They are byproducts of forces necessary for a particular form of life on this earth. That form of life dictated certain parameters and characteristics of our universe, solar system, and planet. That's the cost of creation.

I can fix your problem tsunamis and other inconveniences of plate tectonics by simply stopping the earth's rotation and cooling its molten core to a cold solid (thus addressing the causes of tsunamis and other inconveniences of plate tectonics). Of course all life on earth would promptly die. You may now choose which option you prefer.

Edited by Fortigurn, 13 July 2008 - 10:08 AM.


#42 ChickenSoup_*

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 09:51 AM

OK, i'll humour you. Let's take the Boxing Day tsunami as an example. I didn't come across anybody blaming Adam & Eve for the mounting death toll, but that's essentially the logic of your statements. However, I tend to believe the seismologists; the tsunami was caused by an earthquake close to Sumatra. It's a subduction zone, but i won't bore you with stuff about Plate Tectonics. We live on the crust of a cooling earth, so we just have to get used to these planetary teething problems. Millennia ago we may have conceded that the tsunami might have been caused by a particular underwater Sea-God seeking vengeance on humans, but thankfully due to the enlightenment of modern science we can discount stuff like that, I hope.


Tsunamis, along with other inconveniences of plate tectonics, are part of the cost of creation. They are byproducts of forces necessary for a particular form of life on this earth. That form of life dictated certain parameters and characteristics of our universe, solar system, and planet. That's the cost of creation.

I can fix your problem tsunamis and other inconveniences of plate tectonics by simply stopping the earth's rotation and cooling its molten core to a cold solid (the causes of tsunamis and other inconveniences of plate tectonics). Of course all life on earth would promptly die. You may now choose which option you prefer.


Very good point.

#43 Richard

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 10:07 AM

I just want to focus on one particular statement you have made:

The primary reason for human suffering is our mortality. And that mortality is a direct result of Adam and Eve's sin. Ergo, the millions of children who die through illness & natural catastrophes are by logical extension the victims of man's disobedience to God because they are mortal (not because God is deliberately killing them, which He is not).

You don't seem to understand the fundamental problem with this statement IF God is omnipotent/omniscient. If God exists then he is most certainly allowing people to suffer; to say he is 'deliberately killing them' seems a bit strong, but logically that is what is happening.
Let's look at it another way: would you send your own child to a painful & excruciating death if you knew you could prevent it?

The point you're not getting is that God has offered the solution to death and he does save people out of it. Even though people die, sometimes excruciatingly, God promises to those who listen to him that he will raise them from the dead and give them immortality on a renewed earth. You are looking at things from an extremely short term point of view. When a person has lived for 25 billion years they'll realize that the nanosecond of life in a fallen earth was worth it. Unfortunately many people reject God and if that means they die in a Tsunami then that's no fault of God's.

#44 Jeppo_*

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 10:46 AM

OK, i'll humour you. Let's take the Boxing Day tsunami as an example. I didn't come across anybody blaming Adam & Eve for the mounting death toll, but that's essentially the logic of your statements. However, I tend to believe the seismologists; the tsunami was caused by an earthquake close to Sumatra. It's a subduction zone, but i won't bore you with stuff about Plate Tectonics. We live on the crust of a cooling earth, so we just have to get used to these planetary teething problems. Millennia ago we may have conceded that the tsunami might have been caused by a particular underwater Sea-God seeking vengeance on humans, but thankfully due to the enlightenment of modern science we can discount stuff like that, I hope.


Tsunamis, along with other inconveniences of plate tectonics, are part of the cost of creation. They are byproducts of forces necessary for a particular form of life on this earth. That form of life dictated certain parameters and characteristics of our universe, solar system, and planet. That's the cost of creation.

I don't have a problem with any of this.

I can fix your problem tsunamis and other inconveniences of plate tectonics by simply stopping the earth's rotation and cooling its molten core to a cold solid (thus addressing the causes of tsunamis and other inconveniences of plate tectonics). Of course all life on earth would promptly die. You may now choose which option you prefer.

Tsunamis aren't the problem. You're being mischievous!

#45 Fortigurn

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 11:15 AM

OK, i'll humour you. Let's take the Boxing Day tsunami as an example. I didn't come across anybody blaming Adam & Eve for the mounting death toll, but that's essentially the logic of your statements. However, I tend to believe the seismologists; the tsunami was caused by an earthquake close to Sumatra. It's a subduction zone, but i won't bore you with stuff about Plate Tectonics. We live on the crust of a cooling earth, so we just have to get used to these planetary teething problems. Millennia ago we may have conceded that the tsunami might have been caused by a particular underwater Sea-God seeking vengeance on humans, but thankfully due to the enlightenment of modern science we can discount stuff like that, I hope.


Tsunamis, along with other inconveniences of plate tectonics, are part of the cost of creation. They are byproducts of forces necessary for a particular form of life on this earth. That form of life dictated certain parameters and characteristics of our universe, solar system, and planet. That's the cost of creation.

I don't have a problem with any of this.


Great, so you will have to live with tsunamis, earthquakes, and volcanoes, just like the rest of us. That's the cost of creation.

Tsunamis aren't the problem. You're being mischievous!


If tsunamis aren't a problem, then don't raise them. I didn't see anyone blaming tsunamis on 'a particular underwater Sea-God seeking vengeance on humans', or 'blaming Adam & Eve for the mounting death toll'.

#46 Jeppo_*

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 11:30 AM

The point you're not getting is that God has offered the solution to death and he does save people out of it.

Richie, you're talking about a matter of faith (which i don't deny is very real for you). I'm talking about life here & now in the real world, not some promissory note for the chosen few in the future.
There is an immense amount of suffering in the world. Personally, I accept suffering as a fact of life. Natural disasters are nobody's fault. In fact the vast amount of human suffering is nobody's fault; it's just the way things are.

The world is precisely the way we would expect it to be if there was no God.
The world is also precisely the way we would expect it to be if there IS a God, but not one who actually cares about human suffering in the real world. Quoting Bible passages is all well & good, but just look at the world in which we live. Children die all the time in cruel circumstances, if God was truly good He would do something about it, wouldn't He?

I haven't always doubted God's existence, but time & time again I am led back to disbelief the more I investigate & question religious/spiritual ideas. While it would seem a nice thing to believe in a caring creator, I can't help but think it's all wishful thinking. Very sophisticated wishful thinking, I might addd, but still wishful thinking.

#47 nsr

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 12:57 PM

Children die all the time in cruel circumstances, if God was truly good He would do something about it, wouldn't He?

Offering life after death doesn't qualify as doing something?

What exactly would you expect God to do?

If children couldn't die, then parents wouldn't bother to protect them or bring them up.

#48 Guest_Corky_*

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:56 PM

I didn't really realize there were so many cruel minded, mean spirited people on this forum.

While it may be true that God "cursed the ground" because of Adam's sin, he also removed that curse because of the same reason that it was cursed to start with.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

There are folks here who believe that God is still cursing the ground and who believe that God will one day smite every living thing again (only with fire instead of water - thanks a lot!). There are others here who imagine they can look at things from a "divine perspective" instead of just the human perspective of everyone else. I reckon they also imagine they have the mind of God and can see things from God's point of view, as that is what "divine perspective" would imply.

These same people would tell me that I am using only my own human reasoning and understanding. Well, I'm interested to know how we can have any other kind. It's this very "holier than thou" attitude and the imagined knowledge of "God's way of looking at things" of certain people that turned me into an atheist decades ago.

Maybe . . . just maybe, if certain people would get off their pedestals of their exclusive righteousness and actually did "love thy neighbor", in deed, instead of just mouthing the words "be thou warmed and filled", there just might be a lot less suffering in the world. But no, wait for the evil ("shudder") and worldly organizations like the RCC to rush in to help people in trouble instead. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's what Jesus would want you to do as his followers, send 'em some tracts and leaflets instead of food and clothes, that should ease the pains of the naked and starving.

Cheers, (and sleep well)

Edited by Corky, 13 July 2008 - 03:02 PM.


#49 Dawn

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:13 PM

Children die all the time in cruel circumstances,

God's Son died in very cruel circumstances. He did not exempt Himself from suffering, but fully participated.

#50 twoofseven

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:20 PM

Jeppo,

I think this may be a problem of perspective. It seems that your perpective is very humanistic, and so we come across as glib or unfeeling when we speak of the suffering of humanity and God's attitude toward it. It isn't that God doesn't care about the children that die needlessly, or the vast amounts of suffering that happen, because the Bible tells us that he does.

God cares about humanity as a whole, His creation of these people who are capable of making a choice to follow or reject Him, entirely without coersion. Just as His awareness of the sparrow's fall, He knows all these sufferings, but if He were to intervene, it would affect our choice, and that would defeat the purpose of our having the free will to choose in the first place. The Plan that God has set in place is concerned with humanity as a whole. The problem starts when we begin to elevate the value of humanity. To someone who doesn't believe in God, individual human rights and lives are as good as it gets, so the obvious challenge is to understand how those who do believe in a loving creator God can explain why he allows such suffering.

For me, if I were to proclaim the injustice of God's allowing human suffering, I would be putting humanity on equal footing with God. I need to remember that humanity is His creation. Job questioned God's motives when he suffered, and God reminded Job that he was not God, was not privy to God's workings during the creation, and did not have the right to question what he was not intended to understand. I see this as a reminder to us all that we are not always going to be able to explain why some things happen, that sometimes God has not made his plans available to us. When I find myself trying to explain God's motives, I try to remember that I am the creature, not the Creator, and the Plan that He has set in motion is for humanity as a whole, and I may not know the explanation because He did not tell us. He is not obligated to tell us, and sometimes we just have to remember that what may appear to be uncaring or cruel may have an entirely just, reasonable and important purpose, but we don't know what it is because God did not tell us. I am the creature, He is the Creator.

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 07:38 PM

I didn't really realize there were so many cruel minded, mean spirited people on this forum.

While it may be true that God "cursed the ground" because of Adam's sin, he also removed that curse because of the same reason that it was cursed to start with.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is[size=2] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I am not aware that God actually ' removed ' His curse?

The passage states that God said that He wouldn't curse it again, not that the first curse was withdrawn?

Cheers!

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 07:45 PM

Jeppo,

I think this may be a problem of perspective. It seems that your perpective is very humanistic, and so we come across as glib or unfeeling when we speak of the suffering of humanity and God's attitude toward it. It isn't that God doesn't care about the children that die needlessly, or the vast amounts of suffering that happen, because the Bible tells us that he does.

God cares about humanity as a whole, His creation of these people who are capable of making a choice to follow or reject Him, entirely without coersion. Just as His awareness of the sparrow's fall, He knows all these sufferings, but if He were to intervene, it would affect our choice, and that would defeat the purpose of our having the free will to choose in the first place. The Plan that God has set in place is concerned with humanity as a whole. The problem starts when we begin to elevate the value of humanity. To someone who doesn't believe in God, individual human rights and lives are as good as it gets, so the obvious challenge is to understand how those who do believe in a loving creator God can explain why he allows such suffering.

For me, if I were to proclaim the injustice of God's allowing human suffering, I would be putting humanity on equal footing with God. I need to remember that humanity is His creation. Job questioned God's motives when he suffered, and God reminded Job that he was not God, was not privy to God's workings during the creation, and did not have the right to question what he was not intended to understand. I see this as a reminder to us all that we are not always going to be able to explain why some things happen, that sometimes God has not made his plans available to us. When I find myself trying to explain God's motives, I try to remember that I am the creature, not the Creator, and the Plan that He has set in motion is for humanity as a whole, and I may not know the explanation because He did not tell us. He is not obligated to tell us, and sometimes we just have to remember that what may appear to be uncaring or cruel may have an entirely just, reasonable and important purpose, but we don't know what it is because God did not tell us. I am the creature, He is the Creator.

I must concur with much of what you said however I imagine that if I lived in a country where atrocities took place and e.g. my Mother and sister were raped before my eyes and my family tortured and murdered (e.g. Zimbabwe now) then God's ultimate purpose would I think, frankly pale into insignificance for me.

#53 Richard

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 10:11 PM

I didn't really realize there were so many cruel minded, mean spirited people on this forum.

While it may be true that God "cursed the ground" because of Adam's sin, he also removed that curse because of the same reason that it was cursed to start with.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

There are folks here who believe that God is still cursing the ground and who believe that God will one day smite every living thing again (only with fire instead of water - thanks a lot!). There are others here who imagine they can look at things from a "divine perspective" instead of just the human perspective of everyone else. I reckon they also imagine they have the mind of God and can see things from God's point of view, as that is what "divine perspective" would imply.

These same people would tell me that I am using only my own human reasoning and understanding. Well, I'm interested to know how we can have any other kind. It's this very "holier than thou" attitude and the imagined knowledge of "God's way of looking at things" of certain people that turned me into an atheist decades ago.

Maybe . . . just maybe, if certain people would get off their pedestals of their exclusive righteousness and actually did "love thy neighbor", in deed, instead of just mouthing the words "be thou warmed and filled", there just might be a lot less suffering in the world. But no, wait for the evil ("shudder") and worldly organizations like the RCC to rush in to help people in trouble instead. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's what Jesus would want you to do as his followers, send 'em some tracts and leaflets instead of food and clothes, that should ease the pains of the naked and starving.

Cheers, (and sleep well)

What on earth are you talking about?

It might be better to try and understand what people are saying instead of going off on judgmental rants.

#54 Richard

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 10:50 PM

Anyway, to respond to your rant:

I didn't really realize there were so many cruel minded, mean spirited people on this forum.

I didn't realize there was someone who has the amazing ability to judge the hearts and motives of people on this forum.

There are folks here who believe that God is still cursing the ground and who believe that God will one day smite every living thing again (only with fire instead of water - thanks a lot!).

Please explain who these people are. I don't see anyone of that description here.

There are others here who imagine they can look at things from a "divine perspective" instead of just the human perspective of everyone else. I reckon they also imagine they have the mind of God and can see things from God's point of view, as that is what "divine perspective" would imply.

Then you really haven't thought one iota of what people mean by the divine perspective. Instead of going off on angry retorts to what you think people are saying it might be polite to ask them what they mean. If you asked me what I meant by the divine perspective you'd get a very straightforward answer that has nothing to do with the haughtiness you label us with.

These same people would tell me that I am using only my own human reasoning and understanding. Well, I'm interested to know how we can have any other kind.

By reading the Bible. Have a look at Isaiah 55 for starters.

It's this very "holier than thou" attitude and the imagined knowledge of "God's way of looking at things" of certain people that turned me into an atheist decades ago.

Why do you think it is holier than thou? For myself personally Jeppo seems like a very decent chap and I wouldn't dare suggest I am holier than him. I see things from a different angle and I feel very privileged to be able to offer the divine perspective on things, albeit from a veiled vision, and I am putting forward what I think that perspective tells us about suffering. What is wrong with that?

Maybe . . . just maybe, if certain people would get off their pedestals of their exclusive righteousness and actually did "love thy neighbor", in deed, instead of just mouthing the words "be thou warmed and filled", there just might be a lot less suffering in the world.

That's true. Are you implying that people who talk about the Bible and God's love aren't manifesting it? Well of course, there are hypocrites, lots of them, but since you don't know one blasted thing about people on here I'd appreciate it you getting off what seems like your holier than thou pedestal.

But no, wait for the evil ("shudder") and worldly organizations like the RCC to rush in to help people in trouble instead. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's what Jesus would want you to do as his followers, send 'em some tracts and leaflets instead of food and clothes, that should ease the pains of the naked and starving.

You have no clue, as usual. You display your utter ignorance on this forum time and time again.

#55 Guest_Corky_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:05 AM

Anyway, to respond to your rant:

I didn't really realize there were so many cruel minded, mean spirited people on this forum.

I didn't realize there was someone who has the amazing ability to judge the hearts and motives of people on this forum.

There are folks here who believe that God is still cursing the ground and who believe that God will one day smite every living thing again (only with fire instead of water - thanks a lot!).

Please explain who these people are. I don't see anyone of that description here.

There are others here who imagine they can look at things from a "divine perspective" instead of just the human perspective of everyone else. I reckon they also imagine they have the mind of God and can see things from God's point of view, as that is what "divine perspective" would imply.

Then you really haven't thought one iota of what people mean by the divine perspective. Instead of going off on angry retorts to what you think people are saying it might be polite to ask them what they mean. If you asked me what I meant by the divine perspective you'd get a very straightforward answer that has nothing to do with the haughtiness you label us with.

These same people would tell me that I am using only my own human reasoning and understanding. Well, I'm interested to know how we can have any other kind.

By reading the Bible. Have a look at Isaiah 55 for starters.

It's this very "holier than thou" attitude and the imagined knowledge of "God's way of looking at things" of certain people that turned me into an atheist decades ago.

Why do you think it is holier than thou? For myself personally Jeppo seems like a very decent chap and I wouldn't dare suggest I am holier than him. I see things from a different angle and I feel very privileged to be able to offer the divine perspective on things, albeit from a veiled vision, and I am putting forward what I think that perspective tells us about suffering. What is wrong with that?

Maybe . . . just maybe, if certain people would get off their pedestals of their exclusive righteousness and actually did "love thy neighbor", in deed, instead of just mouthing the words "be thou warmed and filled", there just might be a lot less suffering in the world.

That's true. Are you implying that people who talk about the Bible and God's love aren't manifesting it? Well of course, there are hypocrites, lots of them, but since you don't know one blasted thing about people on here I'd appreciate it you getting off what seems like your holier than thou pedestal.

But no, wait for the evil ("shudder") and worldly organizations like the RCC to rush in to help people in trouble instead. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's what Jesus would want you to do as his followers, send 'em some tracts and leaflets instead of food and clothes, that should ease the pains of the naked and starving.

You have no clue, as usual. You display your utter ignorance on this forum time and time again.


I shall take my clueless, ignorant self away from this forum but I'm glad I touched a nerve. Maybe you can take a good long look around you and more importantly, a good long look at yourself.

#56 ChickenSoup_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:16 AM

Corky, if I may say so myself, after reading this thread I think you have misunderstood a lot of the posts and assumed unfairly that people were being self-righteous when that has not been the case at all. It would help if you could please inquire as to what people mean before jumping to the wrong conclusions.

You've attributed motive that wasn't necessary.

When people say to look at things from God's point of view, they simple mean from the biblical standpoint. The bible, after all, is written by God and the ways of God vastly differ from the ways of man (human). A lot of things that seem unfair to us mere mortals are just and fair in God's, who has the ultimate wisdom in all things. A lot of the time it's a hard lesson to take and natural disasters and unforeseen circumstances is a great example of this.

If you think I'm wrong all you have to do is read the book of Job.

Edited by ChickenSoup, 14 July 2008 - 12:22 AM.


#57 Richard

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:22 AM

Man alive Corky. :eek:

Your judgmentalism is a wonder to behold. I am not going to try defending what you can't possibly know what people are doing to help alleviate suffering without blasting their trumpet about it.

Anyway, you did touch on one good point and that is that even Christians who know the will of God can and do despise the will of God and say "be ye warmed and filled" without manifesting the love of God beyond a professed intellectual understanding. That says something about the state of humanity as a whole. It also helps explain things like why God would ask his people to wipe out whole cities and nations when they entered the land of Caanan.

God chose Israel to witness to his glory and the vast majority failed miserably despite being given abundant reason to trust in the living God. But as a nation they did witness to the power and majesty of God when destroying Sihon and Og. The Canaanites heard about it - they were famous victories! What did the Canaanites do? 99.99% of them ignored the warning and continued in their antagonism against the God of heaven. Only someone like Rahab, a harlot for goodness sake, humbled herself to accept that the God of Israel is right and everything else is wrong. This also tells us something about humanity and that's why God told Israel to wipe those nations off the face of the earth. The fact is God knows the end from the beginning and one of the things he knows is that 99.99% of people (including Jews and Christians) refuse to acknowledge him and his purpose despite it being good and just and right for us to follow. So when suffering and death infants happen, things hard to explain, remember that to all intents and purposes there's a 0.01% chance they'd do what God wants them to do.

And all he wants them to do is listen!

#58 Richard

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:54 AM

Apologies to Corky if I came across too strong in either post. I am probably more angry with those who taught you the "truth" and showed you an "example" than anything else.

#59 Jeppo_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:14 AM

The fact is God knows the end from the beginning and one of the things he knows is that 99.99% of people (including Jews and Christians) refuse to acknowledge him and his purpose despite it being good and just and right for us to follow. So when suffering and death infants happen, things hard to explain, remember that to all intents and purposes there's a 0.01% chance they'd do what God wants them to do.

Richie, this is precisely why the promise of an eternal life has little meaning for me. It's difficult for me to conceive that a God could be so amazingly clever that He could create the universe, then in the next breath produce a series of writings giving a set of instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about, then plans to get vengeful because we never comprehended what was so 'obvious' in the fist place. Also has it never struck you that God has communicated to us in probably one of the most inefficient ways possible; producing books that even in the time of Jesus could not be read in their original language by the majority of people?

I suspect you have been brought up in the 'truth' like most people who profess a belief, it's very different for those of us who don't have these overpowering formative experiences.

#60 ChickenSoup_*

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:45 AM

... then in the next breath produce a series of writings giving a set of instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about...

Why is this God's fault? Even humans come up with instructions that virtually every man and his dog seem to disagree about.

...then plans to get vengeful because we never comprehended what was so 'obvious' in the fist place.

Perhaps you can give some examples of this vengeful God?

Also has it never struck you that God has communicated to us in probably one of the most inefficient ways possible...

I think God communicated everything just fine, however as you said, man has decided to disagree.

I suspect you have been brought up in the 'truth' like most people who profess a belief, it's very different for those of us who don't have these overpowering formative experiences.

I don't know about Richie, but I haven't been brought up in the truth.




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