This response has to begin with what you said in your last paragraph above, for obvious reasons...
The so-called evidence you’ve “repeatedly presented for your case” is questionable and has actually been refuted over a century ago. Immersionists such as yourself have come up with new and creative ways of recycling those erroneous arguments, hoping for a different outcome today.
Your claim that I have “failed to preset any evidence at all” is only an attempt to distract the reader. Go back and read through the thread. Everything I wrote up until now has been an examination of your article, your sources and your findings. I admit that some things I wrote in my last post require evidence, but I was threatened with censorship if I were to actually provide it without first going to the B-Greek forum! Rest assured, if it’s evidence you want, it’s evidence you will get.
Jon, it is apparent to me - and it will be to others by the end of this article - that you’re in way over your head (to use a suitable metaphor).
Who says I haven’t got the confidence to make my case at your forum? I never said I wasn’t confident making my case there. I think you’re underestimating the strength of my position. I also think you’re overestimating the strength of yours.
Your threat to censure me has me wondering why you responded to my opening post in the first place? You must have assumed that I was just some neophyte unfamiliar with the controversy over the meaning of baptizo. You also must have assumed that the article you provided me would be blindly accepted for no other reason than because it came from you, and that no dissent would be forthcoming. Well, I’m sorry to disappoint you on all counts. I’m very familiar with the issue, and, sad to say, your word is not gospel. You’ve made numerous blunders with the facts, you can’t seem to cite your sources properly, and it will be a proven fact by the time I’m done with this response that you aren’t as familiar with the issue as you pretend.
The fact that you spent 9 pages (the length of your last post) asking questions of me and requesting certain proofs and demonstrations, only to end it with the above threat of censorship if I would actually respond to what you wrote in those 9 pages, tells me that:
- You really don’t want answers and demonstrations from me, you just wanted the last word without any further challenge.
- You feel your position is being threatened, and to allow me to respond would prove beyond all doubt the falsity of your position.
I agree with you that you've utilized a “wide range of sources” in your article and in your posts. Evidence, however, it is not.
Surely you know a tidal wave of real evidence is on the way, if you’ve actually immersed yourself in this issue, as opposed to merely dipping yourself into it. Evidence will be poured forth in this response, if you dare to read it!
“Are you, at any point, going to present evidence for your case?”
Absolutely.
“Here's what I need you to do.”
You mean instead of presenting the evidence you just asked for? You’re playing games. The readers aren’t stupid.
“Before you write your next response to me, go here [link to B-Greek forum] and present your case with its evidence. Please tell me what the response is.”
Why do I need to post my evidence somewhere else before I post it at your forum? Your request that I “please tell [you] what the response is” in light of the fact that you’re a member there - which means you would see any and all responses - shows you to be as arrogant as you are disingenuous.
I joined that forum and made 2 posts - one introducing myself, the other asking the same question that I asked in the OP at your forum. Neither post was approved by the admin for the following reasons:
- My username “Unbound68” did not meet their rules for screen names.
- I don’t “know” Greek, which is mandatory in order to post. I know some greek, but not enough to be allowed to join. Evidently the mere inquiry into the meaning of the greek word baptizo at a Greek forum disqualifies me from joining the very forum to which you sent me to find out the meaning of the greek word baptizo! How perfectly asinine and stupid!
Not being able to join, I decided to correspond with the owner of the forum (coincidentally, your namesake) via e-mail. Here’s what I asked him:
Jonathan,
Since I can’t post on your forum, can you answer a question? Based on your studies, are there any lexicons from the 18th-21st centuries that give sprinkle or pour as NT meanings of baptizo?
Of course I know the earlier lexicons do indeed list sprinkle and pour as NT meanings of Baptizo (as will be proven to you a little later), but I wanted to see how much the owner of the board knew about the issue. After all, you sent me to a Greek forum to be “schooled” on the meaning of a Greek word, right?
Here is his answer:
“I don't know the answer to that, I haven't done anything like an extensive study of the word. In the New Testament, it is used at least twice to refer to washing hands:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+7%3A4%2C+luke+11%3A38&version=SBLGNT,esv,hcsb
“I'm an immersion guy, but I think there probably is a good argument that the fundamental meaning of the word in the New Testament is more closely related to ceremonial washing than to immersion. I'm not really confident in my answer, though, and would want to spend a bunch of time studying it before pretending I have an authoritative answer.” (emphasis mine)
Notice that I only asked him if there were any lexicons from the 18th to 21st centuries that give sprinkle or pour as NT meanings of baptizo. What “extensive study” is needed to flip open a few lexicons to the entry on baptizo and answer my question? Further, did you notice that his take on Mark 7:4 is completely contrary to your tortured explanation of how washing hands = immersing them?
In a second e-mail, he even sent me to an article at the CARM website, written by Matt Slick, which also militates against your position. To wit:
Another page you might consider:
So why exactly was I sent to that Greek forum to “present my case,” when not only is the owner of the board uncertain as to the meaning of baptizo (“never having done anything like an extensive study”), but he doesn’t even agree with your position to begin with?
In fact, a search of that forum revealed that the meaning of the word baptizo has never been debated there. Being able to read, write, and speak Greek does not a true definition of baptizo make! I'm sure you only sent me to a Greek forum in order to dissuade me from continuing my probe into your article and the sources you utilized. It may have been 4 or 5 years since our last exchange, but rest assured, I haven't been dissuaded in the least. On the contrary, I have been working on an in-depth response to everything you said in your last post - and then some.
Since I have now met your demands, ridiculous and transparently dishonest as they were, I want to proceed to dissect your last round of misinformation. Before we plunge into that, however, let’s tackle some former statements of yours that I didn’t get around to in my last post. To be continued...